GM and Chevy Quality

[Can-Con]

My boss loved his GMC Safari vans. Last one we had in the company was one he bought new before I started working for him on 2000. He passed it down to one of the workers 6 or 7 years ago. By the time we got rid of it, it had almost 500,000 KM on it. [right around 300,000 miles] It probably would have went another couple years but the guy that had it drove it into the ground. No maintenance except oil changes and whatever the bare minimum was to go through inspection for as long as he used it. I don't even remember him ever cleaning it.  

My '99 Saturn had over 350K on it before it died.

But I don't believe there are any really "bad" car makers anymore but every one has built thier share of bad cars. 

If someone has a good car, you never hear about it but if the car won't start ,, just once ,, everyone on facebook knows about it and then every car that company makes is junk.

[slusher]

26 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I've always thought they were good looking, not overdone, and often notice them on the road. I'd kinda thought about looking into finding one.

What kinds of problems have you guys been having with it?

 

A vibration that took GM serval visits to get out, body control module, intermediate shaft, 2 shifter cables and the key will not come out of the ignition when it happens. Antifreeze leak from plates on the side of the block. The engine runs great and it's a GT but everything else in the problem. It has had at least 4 recalls also...

[TomZ]

7 hours ago, slusher said:

I have been watching the commercials that Chevy has been advertising. They have said they won the J.D. Powers award and an award for the last 5 years as most reliable brand.  How is that with the Cobalt key switch and all the recalls they have had on the Pontiacs. My wife had 6 on her G6 from 2012 until 2016. I am not kicking the brand but how is this true?

A recall is not a reliability issue unless you've experienced a failure.

Consumer Reports was really liking some of the recent Chevy's, especially the Impala and their trucks. They never had anything nice to say about the Cruz or Cobalt. Recently Chevy has slid into the bottom third of CR's reliability by brand list, which is based on the hundreds of thousands of annual questionnaires they send to their readers.

I have noticed that it seems like nearly every brand claims some sort of JD Power award in their ads. By any chance did the Chevy state that their award was for "American" cars, for example? (Seems funny to call cars made mostly in Canada/Mexico "American" and the Honda Accord, which has the most US content of any make, "Foreign.")

[Mark]

5 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

WHAT !!!  BLASPHEMY !!!  

Seriously, I've owned almost as many Fiat X1/9s as I've owned Corvairs. They're LOVELY little cars as long as you don't mind tinkering with them constantly. Never had to get any of the Fiats towed (or the Corvairs for that matter), and both cars respond to tuning happily and acquit themselves nicely in competition.  

 

I worked with a guy who owned an X1/9 that he bought new in 1979, and carpooled with him for two and a half years, using his vehicle one week and mine the next.  He had a 4x4 and another car also, so the Fiat wasn't in use all of the time.  But it did get used year-round.

That said, it never stranded us.  But there were never two weeks straight where absolutely everything on that car worked.  One week it was the A/C, next up was the instrument panel lighting, then the radio, then something else.  The dealer that sold him the car went under, and he was taking it to another Fiat dealer.  That guy didn't know numbers under $100 for anything, even in the early Eighties.

The Fiat bit the guy one last time when he sold it...the buyer paid with a rubber check.  Of course, he shouldn't have handed over the title until the check cleared, or he had cash in hand. 

Everyone seems to do well in the "initial quality" surveys.  How many people will badmouth a car they just purchased?

I've never owned a GM vehicle, but have shopped them a few times.  Not the last couple of times though; my current employer has gotten rid of several 2009 Chevrolets (Malibus and Impalas) that have had major transmission problems at fewer than 100,000 miles.  These cars are all well-maintained and not abused by the people driving them.  I'm sure those scored well in "initial quality" too...

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Can-Con said:

 If someone has a good car, you never hear about it

I'm shouting it from the roof tops!

I love my Hondas, & have for the last 30 years.

Over that time, we have owned 14 Hondas & Acuras & have never had a major issue with a single one of them.

Come to think of it, I can't remember any minor issues, though I'm almost sure that there had to have been a couple out of 14 vehicles.

I've never even had to replace a bulb in any of them!

In that same period of time, we owned a Buick, (turned out to have either a blown head gasket or cracked head when I found water in the oil), a Mercury, (fried computer, and leaking oil all over my garage floor before it reached 30,000 miles, not to mention the resale value was absolute BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH when we finally came to our senses & traded it in on the next Honda) and a Dodge truck, which I loved, but it also had bearings going out & a toasted power steering pump in less than 30,000 miles as well.

I don't think that I could even remember where the power steering pump was in any of the Hondas!

Never had to go near them!

 

 

Steve

[dieseldawg142]

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 9, 2018 by dieseldawg142

[Richard Bartrop]

7 hours ago, Aaronw said:

I've never seen an ad campaign cite a study that made them look bad. You will probably* never see an ad from Nissan proclaiming that they have the 6th best selling truck in the US.

 

I'm sure every car maker can find a study out there showing that they make the best xyz, it is just a matter of wording. I'm sure even the Yugo was the best something.

 

 

* I say probably because if I didn't some ad guy out there will ironically reference that stat just to prove me wrong. 

Didn't Isuzu run ads way back when about how they came second in some survey?   Granted, it's the only one I can't think of that doesn't shout "We're number one!"

[dieseldawg142]

............

Edited May 9, 2018 by dieseldawg142

[Richard Bartrop]

Just now, dieseldawg142 said:

yeah, wasn't that "Joe Isuzu" I'm lying campaign?

This was just before that, and it was a print ad.

[Sport Suburban]

The current GM adds really crack me up as it imply's that the older GM vehicles are junk. I have to say that I love my 99 S10! I bought it new and now have 243,000 on it. It has the original 4.3 4L60 and rear. Not one recall on it ever. My 2006 Ram has had a few recalls including the airbags.

Reliability comes down to proper maintenance. Most maintenance is neglected until something fails then it is repaired.

[peteski]

On 1/20/2018 at 5:47 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

3) Yup. Maintenance and competent repairs when necessary make ALL the difference. But many electronic components will NOT be supported in the future for most of the now-new vehicles. Keeping one running will be much like keeping an old Windows 95 computer functional.

My car is a 2006 Scion xB with 130k miles on it, and I still actively use a Win98SE computer at home.   I could even dig up my 486DX2-66 PC with DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1 installed. It probably still works. Same goes for my Sinclair ZX81 computer.

That xB is my first ever new car purchase, and to me the newer cars are much better made than any older cars.  I drove my share of 70's Camaros, Dusters, Pintos, Thunderbirds, Cadillacs, etc., and they were all much less reliable than my xB. Granted, I bought them all used, but even if I bought them new, I am convinced that they would be nowhere as probable as my xB has been so far.  Even if they would be ok mechanically, their bodies would be rusted after 10 years of Northeast winters.

Edited January 22, 2018 by peteski

[OneTrickPony]

Two quick stories:

1. In the late 70's, a co-worker bought a new Fiat Spyder. It was a cute little car, cream yellow with a black top. We were looking through the owners manual when I happened to spotted that the total carrying capacity was 450 pounds. My co-worker was a big lady. If she missed 300 pounds it wasn't by much and her husband was even bigger. Together they had to exceed the load capacity by 200 pounds. They looked like something from a comic strip going down the road. Her husband could not even ride in the car with the top up. She kept it for about a year before the unibody/subframe cracked right under the seats.

2. One of my brother-in-laws started a company in the natural gas field about 10 years ago. Being a big Chevy guy, he only bought Chevy  and GMC trucks for his field techs. After 5 years or so, he was so disgusted with the break downs he began to buy Fords and Dodges. His fleet is now over 100 trucks, mostly Rams but supervisors get the option of buying Fords (more expensive but nicer ride). Not a single Chevy left in the fleet after 10 years. My B-I-L, however, still drives a GMC.

Edited January 22, 2018 by OneTrickPony

[Daddyfink]

I am sure we can all agree they have the worst commercials ever! 

[stavanzer]

Regarding Yugos. I remember reading a line in one of the Auto Magazines when they came out. The reviewer wrote the shifter worked with "all the smoothness of a baseball bat in a barrel full of coconuts."  Thirty years later, I still recall that jibe.

[OneTrickPony]

1 hour ago, alexis said:

Regarding Yugos. I remember reading a line in one of the Auto Magazines when they came out. The reviewer wrote the shifter worked with "all the smoothness of a baseball bat in a barrel full of coconuts."  Thirty years later, I still recall that jibe.

I noticed someone in a Yugo broken down near my house. I stopped to see if I could help (I couldn't, broken throttle cable) and was talking to the guy as he waited on a tow. At one point he said "I don't know why people talk bad about these Yugos. They are great little cars." 

[Dave Van]

I'm more a Ford guy.....(AMC really) .or at least I own a 2016 F-150 4x4 truck. GM has done some cool stuff. I still want a Corvair!!!

My Dad had a number of full size GM SUV's.  Overall decent trucks. Where GM really sucked was the details.  He bought wiper shear pins by the box full. RAIN alone at times would break them....or maybe just on high speed. Snow would break one for sure. 

Washer fluid tank would split every 6 -9 months. Both issues were very frustrating,. 

There were other little issues that didn't stop the vehicle but should not happen in the first 3 years....about how long Dad kept them

We need GM and want them to stay a majority US owned company....but I'll not buy one. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

4 hours ago, OneTrickPony said:

I noticed someone in a Yugo broken down near my house. I stopped to see if I could help (I couldn't, broken throttle cable) and was talking to the guy as he waited on a tow. At one point he said "I don't know why people talk bad about these Yugos. They are great little cars." 

Yugos were essentially Yugoslavian-built Fiat 127s (a smaller version of the 128, which also has a mostly undeserved bad reputation in America) and shared many parts and engineering.

The Fiat 127 worked VERY well in the free part of Europe, but when the generic version went into production under a Communist mind-set, there were problems with quality and materials.

The single biggest failure of the early Yugos in the USA was a crankshaft made from the wrong spec material. Some crankshafts broke.

And like Fiats, the Yugo suffered over here because Americans typically ignored the need for more intensive maintenance...like timing belts every 40,000 miles, and periodic valve-lash adjustments...that big ol' US cars simply didn't require. Naturally, the cars were blamed for the effects of poor maintenance.

There were loads of other minor quality-control issues, and lots of warranty claims, but the car is really just not that bad. It is harshly bad-mouthed mostly by people who don't know what they're talking about...and who engage in the mindless parroting of other's opinions (which is the mainstay of the internet).

It stayed in production as pretty much the same car up until 2008, so how bad could it really be?

[Dodge Driver]

On 1/20/2018 at 5:18 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

 

For instance, the LS series of engines is well respected, but the guys who know engines inside (among them...me) are aware of design shortcomings that frankly defy all logic.

 

This comment genuinely interests me, Bill. Will you please elaborate on this? I have toyed with swapping an LS into my my '91 Firebird.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Dodge Driver said:

This comment genuinely interests me, Bill. Will you please elaborate on this? I have toyed with swapping an LS into my my '91 Firebird.

 

The LS is overall a very worthy successor to the old smallblock Chebby, it's a great engine in most ways, but there are a few weaknesses and some things I just find to be annoying. Not deal-breakers, but can be a PITA.

1) There is an oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump that has had a nasty habit of sticking wide open. When this happens, all the oil bypasses the oil galleries, and the crank and cam starve. Very expensive noises follow.

2) The engines were designed to bolt to the usual Chevy bellhousing pattern, but lack the upper RH bolt hole or even a boss for one. This is fine when the engine is installed, but when you go to put one on a stand, I just don't like the load distribution on the holes you have to use. I made a custom adapter that spreads the loads out better.

3) The cranks were also mostly designed to bolt to many GM flywheels and flexplates, but one version of the crank requires an adapter to bolt up to some, and it's critical to get the right flexplate for the application. It's absolutely necessary, and some guys miss it, or use the wrong flexplate. Again, very unpleasant noises.

4) The nose of the crank on every factory LS I've seen so far has no keyway or key to index the balancer. It is a tight interference fit, and requires a use-once-and-throw-away bolt, plus a kinda special tool to install it. This makes installing a balancer with an integral degree wheel into a needless PITA. You CAN machine a keyway, but why should you HAVE TO? The way the old Chebby engine retained its balancer worked just dandy for 50 years+.

5) Some of the early LS engines had a too-shallow hole where the a coolant temp sender screws into the block down low on the RH side. I once had a devil of a time modifying the water jacket up inside this hole to accommodate a particular temp sending unit.

6) The oil pan rail and some oil pans have bosses for bolts / studs, but none are present. Look at the underside of the C5 pan, and it appears as though each side of the engine was designed by a different guy, in a different town, and they weren't sharing their work.

7) Not all the engines have identical accessory holes in the heads and blocks. This can make it hell to get everything mounted correctly on some swaps.

That's all I can think of right off the top of my head, and like I said, not deal breakers, but you need to watch this stuff. Swapping parts around from different versions of the LS can also cause some very interesting problems.

The heads are the best part of the LS, and are so much better than old-school Chebby heads, there's just no comparison.

To get the benefits of the LS heads and still be able to use stock Chebby mounts (and bulletproof, tried-and-true internals from the "traditional" smallblock) there's a super trick block that accepts LS heads.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0902-motown-ls-engine/

[Aaronw]

 

5 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

And like Fiats, the Yugo suffered over here because Americans typically ignored the need for more intensive maintenance...like timing belts every 40,000 miles, and periodic valve-lash adjustments...that big ol' US cars simply didn't require. Naturally, the cars were blamed for the effects of poor maintenance.

 

They also sold new for less than most couple of years old economy cars, they were cheaper than a Hyundai which at the time were freakishly cheap themselves. People in that market don't usually have the money to follow the recommended maintenance.

Most of the people I knew who bought a Yugo were high school or college students. It doesn't help a cars reliability image one bit when most of the owners are deciding between an oil change and a big box of ramon noodles at Costco.

 

I remember looking through an old car buyers guide and under the Yugo it mentioned the scarcity of A/C on the used market. That was one of the few options offered and it would raise the price by about 50%.    

[Mark]

11 hours ago, Aaronw said:

I remember looking through an old car buyers guide and under the Yugo it mentioned the scarcity of A/C on the used market. That was one of the few options offered and it would raise the price by about 50%.    

I'm surprised the used car guide didn't mention that a full gas tank would increase the value by 50%...

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 minutes ago, Mark said:

I'm surprised the used car guide didn't mention that a full gas tank would increase the value by 50%...

Which reminds me of a totally unrelated but kinda sad story...many of the decommissioned B-17 and B-24 bombers at the end of WWII (some planes were BRAND NEW, and flown straight from the factory to the graveyard in Kingman, Az.) were sold for the value of the fuel in the tanks, and scrapped, stripped of SOME useful components like engines, then melted down on the spot.

Bombers-to-beer-cans doesn't sound quite as noble as swords-to-plowshares.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Casey]

On 1/22/2018 at 8:24 AM, Daddyfink said:

I am sure we can all agree they have the worst commercials ever! 

Actual image of Jesse confronted by Chevy Guy, taken minutes ago...

"You take that back right now..." 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Casey

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[Casey]

I think that may be NSFW, Bill.