The meaning of craftsmanship in model building

[Bugatti Fan]

Craftsmanship!  Well I guess it means different things to different people.

As modellers many of us see building a complex kit and detailing it to a high degree as craftsmanship.  Others may see scratch built highly detailed engineered car models like Gerald Wingrove's as craftsmanship but do not see a model no matter how well built and detailed from a kit of ready to assemble parts as craftsmanship, although building and finishing a kit to a very high standard takes a lot of expertise.

It all comes down to perception and viewpoint. No matter what people's opinions are it does not really matter one iota whether someone is a 'Henry' and builds a lot of of indifferent models quickly for their own enjoyment, is a gregarious builder who likes to go to a club or show, or is a highly competent modeller who likes the cut and thrust of the competition table. As long as we all enjoy building in our own way there is nothing wrong with any of our approaches to the hobby.

Of course there are individuals (thankfully few) who are sore losers in the competition arena. But at the end of the day a judge's opinion is just that, an opinion and a model is no worse when taken off the table than when placed on it.

I enjoy entering competitions and have won some and lost quite a lot more, and don't lose any sleep over it.

When it comes to modelling I am a serious modeller, but I don't take myself too seriously!

[OldNYJim]

5 hours ago, Claude Thibodeau said:

Hi!

Very interesting discussion, that I'd like to join if I may. 

I've built 1/1 hot rods for years, both for myself and clients. Once, a very ambitious guy (a dreamer ?) came to me with a desire to custom-build, from the ground-up, a very distinct concept that he vowed to "bring to the Riddler". Very lofty goal, you might say. So, I worked with him in the design and planning stages, until we had drawings and plans that satisfied him. And then, of course, came the notion of "quality level and price". He remained resolute...

So, to "test" his fortitude, I suggested we go to the next rodding event, and walk around to see if we had the same definition of "quality and finishing". Out we go to Goodguys Scottsdale, circa november 2008. 

Walking around, we meet the owner of a celebrated rod that won a Riddler just a year or two before, and he kindly allows me to "inspect" the car with my friend, so he sees firsthand what I warned him about. Crawling under, we see body panels that are so perfectly finished, I doubt a razor blade could even be inserted in the joints! I fixated on this single notion for ten minutes, just so he understands that, to win big contests, you need that kind of "perfection  (craftmanship ? ), because once the team of judges gather the 8 most spectacular entries for the finale, they go over ALL the nooks and crannies of the car, and therefore, "good enough" won't cut it. Can you say "cubic money" investment required here?  It figures. 

My friend told me, on the plane returning home, that if he was to this day "able to see the spectacular appeal of some cars ", he never envisionned that it also has to be "skin deep" to make it to the top. In his newfound knowledge, I think he summed it well. 

Perfection? An elusive notion, even more so when you aim to attain it in 1/24 scale. Might actually be 24 times harder, I might say. But we may try, isn't it?

But if we embark on that pursuit, why do we do it? The Covid crisis and the recurring "postponement" of the shows many of us  love to attend, to me, reinforced the notion that when we build models, we are the "first spectator". First judge. And boy, do we know where our glitches are?!?.

Finally, I know that model building, when I was a kid, was mostly to own a part of a fantasy world that unfolded in the pages of Hot Rod Magazine or Car Model Science. At 66, you may argue that some of that motivation remains, with magazine input being replaced by the spectacular imagination and craftsmaship that one may find on this forum.  But, as someone wrote above on this thread, building something that provides you with the same joy as what a fellow modeler "brought to the contest table" and you discover for the first time, is , I think, the fuel for me. 

Quality execution? Mandatory. Imagination and creativity? Vital. 

Just my two cents, FWIW... 

CT 

What a great story Claude!  Enjoyed your thoughts on this subject!

 

[OldNYJim]

1 hour ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Craftsmanship!  Well I guess it means different things to different people.

As modellers many of us see building a complex kit and detailing it to a high degree as craftsmanship.  Others may see scratch built highly detailed engineered car models like Gerald Wingrove's as craftsmanship but do not see a model no matter how well built and detailed from a kit of ready to assemble parts as craftsmanship, although building and finishing a kit to a very high standard takes a lot of expertise.

It all comes down to perception and viewpoint. No matter what people's opinions are it does not really matter one iota whether someone is a 'Henry' and builds a lot of of indifferent models quickly for their own enjoyment, is a gregarious builder who likes to go to a club or show, or is a highly competent modeller who likes the cut and thrust of the competition table. As long as we all enjoy building in our own way there is nothing wrong with any of our approaches to the hobby.

Of course there are individuals (thankfully few) who are sore losers in the competition arena. But at the end of the day a judge's opinion is just that, an opinion and a model is no worse when taken off the table than when placed on it.

I enjoy entering competitions and have won some and lost quite a lot more, and don't lose any sleep over it.

When it comes to modelling I am a serious modeller, but I don't take myself too seriously!

Thanks for bringing this thread back to the top Noel!

Speaking to your point, you're exactly right - there isn't a good clear criteria or clearly defined standard on what level one has to reach to be termed a 'craftsman' (at least not in the context that we're talking about here in this thread...).  And I wonder too if many craftsman even refer to themselves by that term?  Or is that the equivalent of calling oneself 'handsome' - a term better given as a compliment by others than as a label you give yourself? 

Regardless - your point about different types of build really got me thinking.  Is an immaculately put-together out-of-box build as impressive as a full scratchbuild Winfield-esque large-scale wonder?  Probably not, put side to side...but I think a true craftsman would approach each project the same way - whether it's cleaning up mold lines on a Tamiya curbside kit or scratch-building 96-spoke wire wheels and lathe-turning the rims.  That same desire to complete the task as perfectly as possible is probably still there.

I can't answer definitively - I'm just ASPIRING to be a craftsman here

[Rick L]

We are all craftsmen. Some to different degrees. A craftsman never stops learning. Especially from each other. That’s why this site exists.

[Claude Thibodeau]

1 hour ago, CabDriver said:

What a great story Claude!  Enjoyed your thoughts on this subject!

 

Hi Jim!

Happy you liked it! Styrene philosophy, I guess?

CT

[jaymcminn]

I don't look at myself as a "craftsman" so much as an eternal apprentice. Every build I complete adds something to my skill set. I'd get bored pretty quick if I were just churning out the same thing at the same level ad infinitum. My recent 1/12 Italeri 1923 Fiat Mefistofele project was my first time tackling major wood elements in a model and my first time using real leather, if only for the bonnet straps. I plan on going a few steps further in adding leather upholstery to an upcoming build of the Airfix 1/12 Bentley 4.5 litre. My current 1/24 Ferrari 330 p4 is going to be my first attempt at using the Archer resin rivet decals as well as the first time I've used a resin engine kit (The HRM unit, it's pretty nice). This is a fantastic time to be a modeller...forums like this one as well as online tutorials and aftermarket suppliers mean that if you want to push your skills to the next level you have the support and tools to do that. The internet has also done a lot to facilitate researching rare subjects... my Mefistofele project would be much harder to build with reasonable accuracy if the only way I could get good detail pictures was to jet over to Turin to view the original in the Fiat Museum.

The model car hobby is a big tent, and many of us would do well to remember that. I've seen my share of builds where I'd do something a completely different way, and the temptation to provide unsolicited advice is strong. I then remember that not everybody is looking to get the same thing out of the hobby as I am, and a lot of builders just want to get something on the shelf and move on to the next kit. There's nothing wrong with building a nice collection of "shelf models" and the guy who builds 30 models a year is doing more to financially support the hobby than I am with my 2-3 builds during the same period. 

 

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

Claude and Jay . Great insights. Thanks for sharing them.

 

 

[Claude Thibodeau]

11 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Claude and Jay . Great insights. Thanks for sharing them.

 

 

My pleasure, Bob!

CT

[Scott8950]

53 minutes ago, jaymcminn said:

I don't look at myself as a "craftsman" so much as an eternal apprentice. Every build I complete adds something to my skill set. I'd get bored pretty quick if I were just churning out the same thing at the same level ad infinitum. My recent 1/12 Italeri 1923 Fiat Mefistofele project was my first time tackling major wood elements in a model and my first time using real leather, if only for the bonnet straps. I plan on going a few steps further in adding leather upholstery to an upcoming build of the Airfix 1/12 Bentley 4.5 litre. My current 1/24 Ferrari 330 p4 is going to be my first attempt at using the Archer resin rivet decals as well as the first time I've used a resin engine kit (The HRM unit, it's pretty nice). This is a fantastic time to be a modeller...forums like this one as well as online tutorials and aftermarket suppliers mean that if you want to push your skills to the next level you have the support and tools to do that. The internet has also done a lot to facilitate researching rare subjects... my Mefistofele project would be much harder to build with reasonable accuracy if the only way I could get good detail pictures was to jet over to Turin to view the original in the Fiat Museum.

The model car hobby is a big tent, and many of us would do well to remember that. I've seen my share of builds where I'd do something a completely different way, and the temptation to provide unsolicited advice is strong. I then remember that not everybody is looking to get the same thing out of the hobby as I am, and a lot of builders just want to get something on the shelf and move on to the next kit. There's nothing wrong with building a nice collection of "shelf models" and the guy who builds 30 models a year is doing more to financially support the hobby than I am with my 2-3 builds during the same period. 

 

 

Very well said!

[bobthehobbyguy]

i agree . Great attitude to have.

[Bugatti Fan]

I liked Scott's reference to himself as an 'Eternal Apprentice'.  That pretty much summed it up in two words.

Becoming a craftsman is attained by doing, learning from your mistakes and constant practice, and there is no substitute for this.

[Straightliner59]

42 minutes ago, Bugatti Fan said:

I liked Scott's reference to himself as an 'Eternal Apprentice'.  That pretty much summed it up in two words.

Becoming a craftsman is attained by doing, learning from your mistakes and constant practice, and there is no substitute for this.

My sentiment, exactly. It's a fulfilling, yet unfulfilled pursuit, and it's never dull.

[StevenGuthmiller]

I'll sum up my feelings in this way.

You don't have to be a Da Vinci or a Van Gogh to be a craftsman.

 

The people who made these "chairs" were both "craftsman".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited October 7, 2021 by StevenGuthmiller

[webestang]

My model kit building philosophy is do the best I can, try to improve, don't take it too seriously and have fun. I think it does take a certain amount of craftsmanship to build a kit but I do not think of myself as a "craftsman" when it comes to kit building. 

For me a craftsman is what is defined in the Webster's dictionary.

"a person and especially a man who practices a trade or handicraft as a job"

 

 

[OldNYJim]

3 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I'll sum up my feelings in this way.

You don't have to be a Da Vinci or a Van Gogh to be a craftsman.

 

The people who made these "chairs" were both "craftsman".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

I’m sure they’re both perfectly functional chairs that work just great for what they were intended for!

I would rate my skills closest to the second chair - but it’s nice to have goals to shoot for!

[StevenGuthmiller]

35 minutes ago, CabDriver said:

I’m sure they’re both perfectly functional chairs that work just great for what they were intended for!

I would rate my skills closest to the second chair - but it’s nice to have goals to shoot for!

I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of us are somewhere in between. ?

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

21 hours ago, webestang said:

...For me a craftsman is what is defined in the Webster's dictionary.

"a person and especially a man who practices a trade or handicraft as a job"

Obviously that definition was written by someone who had no clue as to what "craftsmanship" means.

I constantly fix things that were done by hacker chimps "who practice a trade or handicraft as a job".

5 decades of undoing garbage "craftsmanship" will give you some real perspective on what it actually is.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[Chariots of Fire]

Whew!  That's an awful lot to take in.  Like any other vocation or avocation, there are great examples of exceptional execution and there are examples of not so great execution.  The difference is generally obvious.  Claude, I like your approach!

For me there never will be in this life true perfection so striving toward it is about all we can do.  We share a common interest in creating something in miniature that is as much like the real thing as we can make it.  And in some instances it involves creating something that in our own minds is what we fantasize over and would never become a reality.  Doesn't really make much difference as long as we are enjoying what we are doing.

How far each of us want to take the skills we develop as we progress in life is always up to us.  And that goes for doing something as basic as model building.  Do you enjoy doing it?  Does it fill a void?  Are you satisfied with the results?  Can you live with the flaws you know are there but  no-one else does?  Want to see how many models you can build in a year?  Go for it.  I won't be envious.  I'm lucky to get a couple done.

If you want to get philosophical about it and believe there will ultimately be and end to this ball that is floating around in space, model building doesn't really amount to much.  But God gave each of us a desire to build, to create.  How we do it is up to each of us and in our own way and time.  By the way, have fun doing it and share what you know with someone else.  Isn't that what it is really all about??

 

[OldNYJim]

23 hours ago, webestang said:

My model kit building philosophy is do the best I can, try to improve, don't take it too seriously and have fun. I think it does take a certain amount of craftsmanship to build a kit but I do not think of myself as a "craftsman" when it comes to kit building. 

For me a craftsman is what is defined in the Webster's dictionary.

"a person and especially a man who practices a trade or handicraft as a job"

 

 

Their secondary definition is much closer to the mark to me:

 

[Bugatti Fan]

Bill's reference to 'hacker chimps' reminds me of a model pickup truck I saw at a show a number of years ago.

The logo on it read  'Had enough of the cowboys?  Now try the Indians!  Raj Patel and Son, Building Services'.

[webestang]

15 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Obviously that definition was written by someone who had no clue as to what "craftsmanship" means.

I constantly fix things that were done by hacker chimps "who practice a trade or handicraft as a job".

5 decades of undoing garbage "craftsmanship" will give you some real perspective on what it actually is.

 

That's true.  I also have to fix bad "hacker chimp" photography. 

 

I love that......"hacker chimp". LOL

 

13 hours ago, CabDriver said:

Their secondary definition is much closer to the mark to me:

 

For sure. I need to reevaluate my thoughts on the term craftsmanship.  

[Brudda]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:49 PM, Rick L said:

We are all craftsmen. Some to different degrees. A craftsman never stops learning. Especially from each other. That’s why this site exists.

Agreed. 

[OldNYJim]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:04 PM, Chariots of Fire said:

Are you satisfied with the results?  Can you live with the flaws you know are there but  no-one else does?

Never ??

[Straightliner59]

Sometimes (and it took me almost 50 years to get here), I decide that I have to accept those flaws, knowing the next time will be better. Like Charles said, perfection is impossible to achieve, but, it's certainly not impossible to strive for! I've discovered that, since I became able to accept those little flaws as products of trying I've found myself actually finishing more projects, rather than saying "Well, this isn't perfect, so I'll stick it back in the closet, until I can make it that way." I've also finished several of those projects, over the last six or seven years--and, I am satisfied with them! I accomplished new techniques on all of them, so I learned from them. That's all the reward I really need. 

I don't understand the phrase "I don't build for contests, I just build for fun." I've never built any model, for a contest. I build how I enjoy, and, if it's good enough to win, then great! If not, okay, not today. I'm no less happy with what I've done, because I didn't win. Over the years, I've known quite a few modelers in different pursuits, who've burned out, and quit building. That's something I can't even relate to. I think they were building with too great an eye on competition, because you do not burn out, on something you truly love.

[bobss396]

7 hours ago, Straightliner59 said:

Sometimes (and it took me almost 50 years to get here), I decide that I have to accept those flaws, knowing the next time will be better. Like Charles said, perfection is impossible to achieve, but, it's certainly not impossible to strive for! I've discovered that, since I became able to accept those little flaws as products of trying I've found myself actually finishing more projects, rather than saying "Well, this isn't perfect, so I'll stick it back in the closet, until I can make it that way." I've also finished several of those projects, over the last six or seven years--and, I am satisfied with them! I accomplished new techniques on all of them, so I learned from them. That's all the reward I really need. 

I don't understand the phrase "I don't build for contests, I just build for fun." I've never built any model, for a contest. I build how I enjoy, and, if it's good enough to win, then great! If not, okay, not today. I'm no less happy with what I've done, because I didn't win. Over the years, I've known quite a few modelers in different pursuits, who've burned out, and quit building. That's something I can't even relate to. I think they were building with too great an eye on competition, because you do not burn out, on something you truly love.

Word. I strive to build as best as possible, no matter where the car will wind up. ALL of my builds are contest-quality in theory. I don't let anyone see sub-standard work off my bench. If it shows in the finished model, it has to look good.

I have a "few"... cough... cough... models that have gone back into storage. I finished up a '49 Ford that I started in 2008, a '64 Fairlane stock car started in 2010. I have a '60 Chevy wrecker that I put away at 80% completion in 2000. I have reached a burn-out state in the past, not a good place to be. I find myself dialing the detail level back a bit and it gets me past those slumps.