Off black paint for scale effect.

[D.Pack]

Hi all.

Are there members here who are painting their 'black' cars very dark grey/off black?

For scale effect? If you are, can you post some pics of your builds?

Not everyone subscribes to scale effect I know, but when I have painted black 1.72 aircraft, it just looks wrong.

So I always use an off black shade.

In the past I have built two full black Nascars and was always disappointed with the finish, 25 years later I now know an off black would be preferable.

And if you don't agree with scale effect, am on Britmodeller too, so know how a decisive subject this is!

[Russell C]

Valid question on how much to back off from pure black before it becomes just a noticeably really dark gray. I never cared too much for Tom Daniel's "California Street Vette" in orange with all those giant hood / roof black louvers and rear glass cover louvers, but lately an I idea I have is how interesting it would be in black-on-black -- matte or semi-gloss on the louvers. But the key to pulling that off well would be to different shades of really dark gray that can be mistaken at first glance for black.

I've only done one model in black, a 32nd scale Revell VW Pickup shortened to GTI length, but whenever I try to photograph it in direct sunlight, it just disappears into a basic shape where the details are lost in the contrast with the bright background.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Russell C
typo

[Straightliner59]

For most anything but body-colored items, I prefer to use a dark grey (my old favorite was Pactra Hot Rod Primer, now, I use a Krylon Chalky Finish color, which is very similar to Hot Rod Primer). By using something slightly lighter, it's easy to enhance textures with black washes, which don't show up on black paint! I have an article from my old StraightLineModeler website that Frank Kokosza wrote about doing black finishes. I'll see if I can convert the html to images, and share it here!

[D.Pack]

I have recently painted with a pearl black to attempt to 'lift' the shade, I think it does work to some extent. That pearl shows off the cars lines.

 

This is to be a Rusty Wallace #2 car, the actual car is just gloss black.

The nascar wheels, am painting with Tamiya NATO black as I do with the props on my WW2 aircraft.

[El Roberto]

There's also Tamiya or AK Interactive  NATO Black.  I use it on all my aircraft builds that require black.   Both are flat paints but could be clear coated easily. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Interesting thread, as model railroaders who painted their steam locomotives black discovered eons ago it just didn't look 'right'.

Part of it was the fact most black locomotives weathered to dirty gray pretty quickly in operation, and part of it was interpreting actual colors correctly from early color prints and slides. But there are 'builder's photos' of brandy-new steam locomotives that clearly show them to be shiny black the day they rolled out of the shop.

Far as gloss black goes on car models, I've never found anything at all amiss by just painting a model that's supposed to represent a black car...black.

 

[CabDriver]

I agree that if the body of a car should be black, regular old black is fine…BUT…

There’s a lot to be gained I think by taking a longer look at things your brain might THINK should be black and seeing if they really are.  I’m talking interior pieces, frames, rubber hoses, tires…that’s some areas where there’s a whole multitude of different shades and finishes that probably aren’t just a case of painting them black and calling it good.  

Plus, as noted above, if you paint everything the darkest color to start with it’s hard to add shade and depth with washes or different tones.  

For example, a fan belt could well be painted a dark black on the inside of the belt and the back, a dark rubber gray on the outside, and an in-between shade in the areas where it wraps around and disappears under a pulley.  If the pulleys are black too, pick a gloss paint to add the effect of a different material and finish, pick out any nuts or fasteners in a metal tone and use a black wash there to add another tone.

I watched a YouTube video by an artist lately and he said something along the lines of “you’re probably not looking at reference material as much as you should be” and that really stuck with me…less assumptions, more careful study to try and match what’s really THERE and not what you might assume should be there

[D.Pack]

10 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Interesting thread, as model railroaders who painted their steam locomotives black discovered eons ago it just didn't look 'right'.

Part of it was the fact most black locomotives weathered to dirty gray pretty quickly in operation, and part of it was interpreting actual colors correctly from early color prints and slides. But there are 'builder's photos' of brandy-new steam locomotives that clearly show them to be shiny black the day they rolled out of the shop.

Far as gloss black goes on car models, I've never found anything at all amiss by just painting a model that's supposed to represent a black car...black.

 

The glossy finish of a car is I think a problem to show a colour tone difference, unless it's race weathered and beaten or perhaps clean and very highly polished so light can reflect of certain areas?

But anyways, for my Davey Allison #28 builds, I am to try these RAL code paints from Cosmoslac.

Have bought Signal and Traffic black tones and a black/grey, see if all this overthinking is worth it.

[Straightliner59]

17 hours ago, D.Pack said:

The glossy finish of a car is I think a problem to show a colour tone difference, unless it's race weathered and beaten or perhaps clean and very highly polished so light can reflect of certain areas?

But anyways, for my Davey Allison #28 builds, I am to try these RAL code paints from Cosmoslac.

Have bought Signal and Traffic black tones and a black/grey, see if all this overthinking is worth it.

 

I would say that it will be worth it. The main point of modeling, beyond personal satisfaction, I think, is creating visual interest. Anything that accomplishes that is beneficial.🙂

[Bugatti Fan]

Talking of black paint, just recently I have been building a model car with a black interior. The overall interior tub as it were was primed in grey, and sprayed matt black, both automotive acrylics from aerosols. The rubber matting detail moulded into the floor was painted using Revel! Aqua Colour Anthracite that gave a good rubber mat effect. The black leather seats were primed and matt black painted. Then the raised detail on the seats and door panels were painted using again, Revell Aqua Colour, but this time Tar Black. An Aqua Colour normal Black was used to create a wash by thinning with water and run into all the creases in the seats and door panels. When dry the raised cushioning on the seats and panels were just gently rubbed with my finger end to impart a leather like sheen on them. Those Aqua Colours are quite good acrylics in my opinion.

Going further with blacks, artists suppliers carry acrylics of different black shades such as ivory and lamp black. Paynes Grey is useful too being a very dark almost black grey shade. Mostly tube paints, but some come in liquid form and some of the Waterproof Acrylic Inks are worth looking at too. Amazing what artists suppliers hold that are useful to modeller with a bit of lateral thinking.

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Bugatti Fan

[Straightliner59]

Great tips, Noel! Here's the article Frank Kokosza did. It has several of the same kinds of tips as yours--different ways to make the mundane, more interesting!

[Bugatti Fan]

Thanks for sharing that Daniel. I will have a good read of it.

There are so many paints, washes and tints out there now, it is incredible what is on offer.

The Warhammer and Citadel acrylics for fantasy figures are good paints with large colour ranges I just remembered.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Bugatti Fan

[Straightliner59]

9 minutes ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Thanks for sharing that Daniel. I will have a good read of it.

There are so many paints, washes and tints out there now, it is incredible what is on offer.

The Warhammer and Citadel acrylics for fantasy figures are good paints with large colour ranges I just remembered.

Agreed! There are literally hundreds of options. Every one of those options is another tool with which to improve our work!

[D.Pack]

Bump up my old post.

So, off blacks.

My recently finished NASCAR's using RAL system rattlecans.

The Miller car with Graphite Black and the Army with Signal Black. The Millers yellow decals work with the warm tint of the paint.

Below, the Signals purple tint against the NATO Black wheel.

Very different! The NATO's green tint also. Black cars but in different ways.

When buying this paint, I've been using also their CMYK codes.

I've still to use a Traffic Black.

Another thing is the yellow decals on the Army car, they are a complementary colour to purple.

So perhaps that pulls out that tint of the paint.

Some CMYK codes. Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and K for black.

Graphite: 9,5,0,83

Signal.   : 2,2,0,83

Traffic.  : 2,2,0,84

[StevenGuthmiller]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:54 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Far as gloss black goes on car models, I've never found anything at all amiss by just painting a model that's supposed to represent a black car...black.

Yeah, I don't know what "scale effect" means.

A black car is a black car, and a dark gray one is a dark gray one, no matter what scale it is.

Sure, there may be different blacks with a little bit different tints or what have you, but that's just a matter of personal taste.

 

I understand the sentiment with varying finishes when you're talking about interiors or chassis and such, but as far as gloss black on bodies go, if you're trying to replicate black with something other than black, well, then it's not black.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Dave G.]

The black that always seemed to nail it in automotive finishes for me was good old Model Master Classic Black enamel. Course no longer made. Tamiya LP or acrylic are both more stark.  There are craft paints that are close and artist acrylic Mars Black is fairly close. They of course need clear coating. It's just to me Classic Black fit all or most of my gloss black needs.

[Zoom Zoom]

32 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Yeah, I don't know what "scale effect" means.

A black car is a black car, and a dark gray one is a dark gray one, no matter what scale it is.

Sure, there may be different blacks with a little bit different tints or what have you, but that's just a matter of personal taste.

Steve

There's really no right or wrong answer here, some people's own eyes interpret color differently than other people's eyes. I'm in 100% agreement on gloss black on a model car, it never looks wrong or out of scale to me. Other colors however can benefit from scale effect. Many of us look at our models primarily inside under artificial light. A 1:1 color can look a lot darker inside (including model shows) than it does outside. Again, no right or wrong answer, the builder can decide what works best. I've built both ways, scale effect and perfect match. For the darkest non-black colors I like mixing them a little lighter for my eyes, not caring if someone else sees the color differently. I build for me, not strict IPMS kind of judging where they can go off the deep end sometimes...

[Ace-Garageguy]

In the real-car world, there is a somewhat "universal" very black black (no other color or metallic or pearl toners) and Duplicolor's black is a very good match.

Recently I've been experimenting more with Tamiya paint, because of it's extreme ease of use and friendliness to delicate substrates, and I find that Tamiya's black matches Duplicolor quite well...both clean, dark very black blacks.

While there are "blacker" blacks on the market for custom cars. you really can't go wrong with Duplicolor or Tamiya.

"Scale effect" has more to do with the final finishing / polishing or clearcoat (or not) than anything else...IMHO...except for overly large metallic particles that render the bass-boat look most convincingly (and may be appropriate for paintwork that's s'posed to represent metalflake, rather than metallic).

[D.Pack]

10 minutes ago, Zoom Zoom said:

There's really no right or wrong answer here, some people's own eyes interpret color differently than other people's eyes. I'm in 100% agreement on gloss black on a model car, it never looks wrong or out of scale to me. Other colors however can benefit from scale effect. Many of us look at our models primarily inside under artificial light. A 1:1 color can look a lot darker inside (including model shows) than it does outside. Again, no right or wrong answer, the builder can decide what works best. I've built both ways, scale effect and perfect match. For the darkest non-black colors I like mixing them a little lighter for my eyes, not caring if someone else sees the color differently. I build for me, not strict IPMS kind of judging where they can go off the deep end sometimes...

Viewing inside, from several feet away, that's really what am trying to improve on.

Right now am seeing them on a shelf and they do look good.

After close up photos are taken and viewed, from a distance is generally how we see our builds.

I do have two #28 Havoline builds lined up.

Graphite Black for the 1990 gold font car and Signal on the later red and yellow font car.

For this later car, am interested to see if the red decals pull out only the red of the Signal paint.

 

[Zoom Zoom]

A stock car model is a bit of a different animal. You're not after a show-quality high-gloss black. When they were painted they weren't painted to production car standards. They were covered with graphics, today they're all just wrapped in a mostly pre-printed design. So your best bet for a vintage stock car in gloss black (but not clear coated or meant to be a show car) may be to determine how and what you spray (airbrush, rattle can, what brand/type of paint) and choose the best product that you're familiar with. Personally I'd airbrush Tamiya LP1 (gloss) black lacquer, and on the last coat thin it out more and spray it from a bit of a distance to kill the ultra-shiny wet coat appearance, helping it get a more scale appropriate appearance, even if not exact to the 1:1. If your eyes are happy you'll be happy.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Just plain old Duplicolor "Universal Black" has always done well for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[D.Pack]

15 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Just plain old Duplicolor "Universal Black" has always done well for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

That is a fantastic build. For me, it being outside really lifts that pure black. I can see several colour tones.

That's how I want my black cars to look inside, the variations. But I know that's impossible.

My cars, better photos in Randy Ayres Nascar.

Also, a website I use. use.https://encycolorpedia.com/

Can find CMYK codes for paints and even design your own. Interesting to see how much primary colour are in some black paints.

Humbrol 21 Black is described as a very dark shade of pink/red.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by D.Pack

[Zoom Zoom]

15 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

In the real-car world, there is a somewhat "universal" very black black (no other color or metallic or pearl toners) and Duplicolor's black is a very good match.

Recently I've been experimenting more with Tamiya paint, because of it's extreme ease of use and friendliness to delicate substrates, and I find that Tamiya's black matches Duplicolor quite well...both clean, dark very black blacks.

While there are "blacker" blacks on the market for custom cars. you really can't go wrong with Duplicolor or Tamiya.

"Scale effect" has more to do with the final finishing / polishing or clearcoat (or not) than anything else...IMHO...except for overly large metallic particles that render the bass-boat look most convincingly (and may be appropriate for paintwork that's s'posed to represent metalflake, rather than metallic).

I learned while trying to replicate a buddy's mild-custom '66 Riviera the difference between Testors gloss black enamel and Tamiya TS black. For some reason I was having issues w/the kit plastic in smoothing out the faint sink lines on the hood. I sanded too deeply into the kit plastic, the Tamiya paint was etching the plastic. So I tried Testors gloss black enamel. It was brown compared to the Tamiya product. I finally got the issue ironed out, amused by the whole mess. 

Even more amusing? Seeing him rolling the Riv into a car show. Expletives were uttered...that Riviera is a deep, rich dark blue pearl that I had never noticed because apparently I only saw it on cloudy days. We still LOL over that. He has a killer shop in Lilburn building dream cars for his customers. You may know him, Mike Lewis.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Zoom Zoom

[peteski]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:52 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

Yeah, I don't know what "scale effect" means.

A black car is a black car, and a dark gray one is a dark gray one, no matter what scale it is.

Sure, there may be different blacks with a little bit different tints or what have you, but that's just a matter of personal taste.

Color scale  effect is something some (usually military) modelers subscribe to.  Basically think of a scale model (because is it smaller than the actual 1:1 vehicle) as a 1:1 subject viewed from a distance. Due to factors such as haze in the air, the farther away the 1:1 subject is, the more washed out (or lighter) its color will be.  Think of a scene where you are seeing some mountains close to you, and some farther away.  The distant mountains will seem lighter, more washed out in color.

So, the smaller the scale of a model it, the lighter its  color should be (up to a point of course).  I know you usually don't "waste your time" looking at external links, but for the benefits of others, here is some additional info:
https://leavenworthmodelersclub.org/member-articles/the-scale-effect-of-color-and-other-considerations/  
https://cs.finescale.com/fsm/tools_techniques_and_reference_materials/f/13/t/2385.aspx
https://www.scale1-72.com/scale_color

Personally I don't really think that 1:24/25 scale model cars should be painted using the scale color theory.  The models are large enough to represent 1:1 vehicles from a distance short enough that the haze in the air would not affect their color.  I'm also not a subscriber of  this entire scale color theory.

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, peteski said:

Color scale  effect is something some (usually military) modelers subscribe to.  Basically think of a scale model (because is it smaller than the actual 1:1 vehicle) as a 1:1 subject viewed from a distance. Due to factors such as haze in the air, the farther away the 1:1 subject is, the more washed out (or lighter) its color will be.  Think of a scene where you are seeing some mountains close to you, and some farther away.  The distant mountains will seem lighter, more washed out in color.

So, the smaller the scale of a model it, the lighter its  color should be (up to a point of course).  I know you usually don't "waste your time" looking at external links, but for the benefits of others, here is some additional info:
https://leavenworthmodelersclub.org/member-articles/the-scale-effect-of-color-and-other-considerations/  
https://cs.finescale.com/fsm/tools_techniques_and_reference_materials/f/13/t/2385.aspx
https://www.scale1-72.com/scale_color

Personally I don't really think that 1:24/25 scale model cars should be painted using the scale color theory.  The models are large enough to represent 1:1 vehicles from a distance short enough that the haze in the air would not affect their color.  I'm also not a subscriber of  this entire scale color theory.

 

Way too far into the weeds for me too.

 

 

 

Steve