3D Printing........Scratch Building or Not?

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 9/21/2023 at 3:21 PM, R. Thorne said:

“Much ado about nothing”

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  On 9/21/2023 at 4:00 PM, Bill Eh? said:

Or a case of agree to disagree.

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I agree.

 

Just like politics, everyone has their own opinion, and it's highly unlikely that anybody is going to change anyone's mind.

But, the OP wanted our opinions, so he's getting them.

 

 

 

Steve

[Richard Bartrop]

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:16 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

Im sorry, but I will never equate "Call of Duty" with "Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel".

 

Steve

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When you're sticking together plastic parts that someone else made and someone else created, that's not so much Michelangelo, as paint by numbers, and is really not a reason to sneer at real creators.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Richard Bartrop

[Bugatti Fan]

Absolutely Steve. 

Yep!  I'm getting plenty of opinions and it is making a lively debate on here.

Plenty of differences of opinion. Thanks for the varied feedback guys!

Just shows that we can all respect each other's opinions without necessarily sharing their point of view on a civilised manner.

[Tabbysdaddy]

  On 9/21/2023 at 6:12 PM, Richard Bartrop said:

When you're stick together plastic parts that someone else made and someone else created, that's not so mush Michelangelo, as paint by numbers, and is really not a reason to sneer at real creators.

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Sticking together those plastic parts is building. Somebody had to create those parts so they could be built. 3D printing, creating parts, is a different level. I can build an engine, but I can't create an engine block so I can build an engine. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 9/21/2023 at 6:12 PM, Richard Bartrop said:

When you're sticking together plastic parts that someone else made and someone else created, that's not so much Michelangelo, as paint by numbers, and is really not a reason to sneer at real creators.

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We're not talking about "sticking together" model kits.

We're talking about scratch building versus 3-D printing

Whether that be a single part, or an entire model.

 

The discussion is about making something from nothing, regardless of the method.

 

You're wandering off a little Richard.

And taking things a little too seriously I might add.

There's no need to get all wound up because others have a different view than you.

 

Nobody's "sneering" at anyone.

Some of us just feel that creating something on a computer is different than someone creating something by hand.

Don't know why that gets some people so heated.

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited September 21, 2023 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

I think what I have a problem with as far as "digital modeling" goes, is that, though it does indeed take a complex learned skill-set to do it well, it's a shortcut, and sidesteps the development of the fine motor skills and eye-hand coordination required to physically make something.

You can correct endlessly within a CAD environment (or art program) so mistakes don't really count. In contrast, inking an engineering drawing, painting with watercolors, or sculpting a model car part requires a high degree of discipline, as mistakes are difficult to impossible to put right without starting over.

And you don't run the risk of impaling or skinning your fingers if your attention lapses. Pain and blood can be very effective teachers. 

An interesting related aside...recently, several studies of younger surgical students have indicated a tendency of some to be ham-handed hackers, never having developed the fine muscle control and spatial awareness most children used to develop over time by doing more things in the physical world.       https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/well/live/surgeons-hobbies-dexterity.html

There are, of course, those who argue that video-game play and other button-clicking/mouse-moving/joystick-jerking activities enhance eye-hand coordination and reaction times, particularly where some kind of computer or other technical interface is involved in the surgery.  https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/could-video-game-players-make-better-surgeons/

The problem, and apparent contradictions, are being intensely investigated. The benefits of having a surgeon who has very precise control of his hand muscles, and an excellent sense of spatial awareness, are kinda obvious.

Here's a couple such investigations:   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7906001/

https://era.library.ualberta.ca/items/bcafa72a-408a-4d83-b3cc-080c4d38a5c1/view/eeb8bd89-c112-4f4a-ab93-dfbbf3859f15/Jonathan_Chainey_202006_MSc.pdf

Ultimately, AI/robotics will probably replace entire classes of skilled humans whose physical abilities have been allowed to atrophy.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[StevenGuthmiller]

I can’t argue with any of that Bill.

Makes all the sense in the world to me.

 

 

Steve

[bobthehobbyguy]

Although good points Bill. Model building requires motor skills. Despite how you create your parts thats isn't going to change that.

 

 

[Bills72sj]

  On 9/21/2023 at 12:13 AM, StevenGuthmiller said:

That’s all well and good, and if others are like me, they realize that 3-D printing is very likely the way of the future, and everyone is free to explore that corner of the hobby, or not, as they choose, but it doesn’t really address the question of whether it could, or should be considered scratch building.

In the end it’s all just an exercise of philosophy, because it really doesn’t make one whiff of difference what we chose to call it.

It’s here to stay, like it or not.

 

The only place that I can really see it being a question at all is on a contest table, where a judge is going to have to make the determination as to whether a 3-D printed part is comparable to a scratch made part when making his deliberations.

Otherwise, what each of us chooses to call it is nothing more than personal opinion.

 

Steve

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Semantics. It seems to boil down to each person's definition of the words they use.

Kind of like when we all used to agree on the definition of "they" or "them".

"Time's are a changin'."

[Bugatti Fan]

 Bob, nobody has said on here that model building does not require good motor skills. I trust that you are talking about building from kits when you refer to building. Of course building a good model from a kit takes time, patience and skill development. No one is arguing about that, but we are drifting off script here as kit building is not the subject of this particular discussion.

Scratch building for many is just a natural progression from building and modifying kits where basic and more advanced modelling skills get learnt through experience. What got me into scratch building was a desire to make models of certain subjects that there would be zero chance of mainstream manufacturers ever doing.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Bugatti Fan

[1930fordpickup]

If Little Jonny did all of the work to create the printed object why not call it SCRATCH PRINTING. 

He started from scratch until the part came out of his printer. 

Every step to produce a printed object is a skill. Just like taking a piece of plastic and shaping it into a part. Every step is a skill.

These two forms of creating a part have different skills, for sure. 

But to discount the skill, is a bit much. 

[Straightliner59]

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:25 PM, Bugatti Fan said:

My own take on this is that I get far more satisfaction from creating and making things by hand.

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I agree, for me, there's just something very Zen-like in the building and shaping of a collection of pieces of raw material, into a recognizable...well...part! 

I guess I would define a scratchbuilt vehicle as one in which the main components (body and chassis seems reasonable) have been builder-constructed from raw materials. While scratchbuilding is my favorite aspect of the hobby, I have no notion of attempting to scratchbuild a carburetor at any time, while Fireball Modelworks is in business!?

[Straightliner59]

  On 9/21/2023 at 1:31 AM, Brian Austin said:

With castings you can get identical quality.  With a model that has duplicate components individually crafted by hand, there's the possibility that quality can vary visibly from one part to the next.  In this case the model made of castings could have a tidier appearance.

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I would agree. If multiple parts are required, I'd say it's wisest to scratchbuild one, then mold and cast duplicates for the rest. I'd also say that, if you completed all those processes, yourself, you get to call all those parts scratchbuilt!?

[Straightliner59]

  On 9/21/2023 at 3:30 AM, StevenGuthmiller said:

Not unless you're creating the master.

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That's the key.

[afx]

Is making music through a computer the same as playing an instrument?

[iamsuperdan]

  On 9/22/2023 at 12:13 PM, afx said:

Is making music through a computer the same as playing an instrument?

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That's a perfect analogy. ?

[Bugatti Fan]

The music analogy is going off script a bit here. Making music by sampling on a PC is not the same as playing an instrument as I see it though.

Scratch building as I see it is having artisan hand and eye dexterity to develop and make models (and parts for) using conventional tools and machinery.

Generating a 3D model on a computer screen is 3D Design as it is the printer making the parts that essentially become a kit, albeit perhaps a unique kit,

A high level of 3D design programming skill is required and that is without question. But the skill set is totally different from the artisan craftsman.

If you mess up on 3d, a few keystrokes will get you a quick remake. The artisan does not have that luxury if things go wrong.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Bugatti Fan

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 9/22/2023 at 4:27 PM, Bugatti Fan said:

A high level of 3D design programming skill is required and that is without question. But the skill set is totally different from the artisan craftsman.

If you mess up on 3d, a few keystrokes will get you a quick remake. The artisan does not have that luxury if things go wrong.

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Exactly.

[Tabbysdaddy]

  On 9/22/2023 at 12:13 PM, afx said:

Is making music through a computer the same as playing an instrument?

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I can see where one might view the computer as a musical instrument, but when I ask people what instrument they play I've never been told "I play the computer".

Edited September 22, 2023 by Tabbysdaddy

[NOBLNG]

If you buy a kit from Revell, AMT or whoever…someone designed the parts. If you 3D print the kit…someone designed the parts. It could be the builder or someone else. The designing of the parts definitely requires a skill set, but I wouldn’t call it scratch-building. Scratch building to me is taking a raw block of something and turning it into something else. It is just a different type of skill. JMO.

Edited September 22, 2023 by NOBLNG

[Mike C.]

I scratch built the surfboards on the left. I'd much prefer to let the professionals do the heavy lifting. The ones on the right are from Texas 3D Customs.

 

[Aaronw]

3D printing is in the same category as resin casting and CNC machining.

Is making the master, and then resin casting duplicates scratch-building?

Is making parts on your CNC milling machine scratch building? Does it make a difference if you designed the part in CAD or bought the file to upload into your milling machine?

If yes to either of these, then I don't see why 3D printing isn't. If no to either, what is the difference? Is their a difference between carving a block of aluminum by hand with a file, doing it with a manual milling machine or doing it with a CNC milling machine? 

It gets kind of murky once you are not working strictly with your hands, and without power tools. Once you add power, where do you draw the line, hand drill, drill press, lathe?

[Bugatti Fan]

Question is Mike, the 3D printed or resin surfboards look great, but did you derive a lot more personal satisfaction from crafting your own?

If you made a second pair yourself I would guess that they would look far better than your first two having developed your carving skills and taken perhaps a first step into artisan scratch building.I

It that is your first attempt at scratch building by making those surfboards, I reckon you did a good job on them.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Bugatti Fan

[TonyW]

I'm unsure how I feel about the whole 3D printing thing as it applies to modelling. We seem to be at the point that computer skills are overtaking what's possible for a modeller to replicate. That's both good and bad.

Check out some of the available shipbuilding 3D parts as an example. 1.700 scale multiple anti aircraft gun platforms with scale ring sights, ammo feeds and deck grids and so on. You might be able to build one yourself if you have quite amazing skills but a dozen for an aircraft carrier would take some doing. I would class this sort of thing as part assembly though, no different to opening a kit box and working with what's in there.

The idea of defining what constitutes scratch building is an interesting one. Sit at your bench with a pile of plastic card, wood or metal along with the tools to shape the material and then proceeed to make a complete model with what's sat there. Scratch built right?

You didnt make the plastic, or grow the wood though. No personal mining or smelting to get the brass sheet or ally strut. Those tools needed making by someone as well.  Take things right back and we can argue about the creation of the universe and work forwards from there. Good luck with that one! 

Life is constant change and there's not a lot to be done about that. CAD and 3D printing are here now and they compliment etch and resin to help us make of them what we will.

It's the builders choice as to how much or how little of the available tech he or she uses. Having another choice added to the list is a good thing if it pleases the modeller and adds to the enjoyment of the hobby.

Contest judges are in for a hard time though!

 

Tony.

[Bugatti Fan]

Aaron stating about 3D printing being in the same category as CNC machining and resin casting is a red herring.

3D printing technology allows hollowed out sections and undercuts to me made directly as it works by layering material.

Those two things are impossible to do on a CNC Miling Machine or Lathe whilst machining as the material is being cut with a mounted tool where either the tool rotates in a chuck on a milling machine or the work rotates in a lathe and a tool held in a tool post is brought on to cut the work.

Masters for resin casting have to be made taking into account to allow the object to be removed from the mould when cast.