Plastered

[charlie8575]

As mentioned elsewhere, I am now living elsewhere.

My father and I bought what will someday again be a very nice 1914 village colonial in a little mill town in northern Worcester County, Mass., called Athol. Athol's most famous contributions are the L.S. Starret Co. (world's largest measuring instrument manufacturer) and the famous 19th Century anarchist Lysander Spooner, who, in a bit of irony, was a clerk for the Post Office.

We bought this house as a foreclosure for a cash deal because we had to do hard money. We came in knowing it would need work.

One of the things it REALLY needs are large sections of wall repaired. The walls are the original horsehair plaster.

Does anyone know how to fix this stuff? One of the guys I went to high school with does do some plaster work, but if there's even a chance I can do it myself and have it come out right, I might be willing to look into it.

My honest inclination is call someone, have them take down the plaster, and then drywall/skim-coat. I'd prefer not to do that in the interest of integrity of the house's history, but I also can't think of a better way for DIY. I know Frank can do actual plaster for me if I ask him.

The plaster is crumbling under wallpaper and chunks occasionally fall off, it's chipping in rooms, and several roms have a very rough finish plaster that really looks terrible (1960s-era "remuddle.")

Anyone have other suggestions?

Charlie Larkin

[Foxer]

Hi Charlie. Athol, eh?   Isn't that where Ft. Devens is?  where I was stationed waiting for my Army medical discharge. It is wilderness out there!  eheh

You know I had am engineering/architectural consulting business here in MA and I can only say it's not worth it trying to preserve something that didn't work well to start with, it's just what they had available. I know everything is money, but you'll just lose more if you try to keep horsehair plaster. Tear it out, INSULATE and drywall it back. Do it a room at a time to keep costs down and if you know someone that can do it, all the better.

[Tom Geiger]

Agreeing with Mike!  Take out the old plaster.  Even if you get it to look good now, it will continue to crumble.  Drywall is the way to go.  For the historic aspect, save the original molding and use it over the drywall.  

[Jantrix]

3 hours ago, Tom Geiger said:

Agreeing with Mike!  Take out the old plaster.  Even if you get it to look good now, it will continue to crumble.  Drywall is the way to go.  For the historic aspect, save the original molding and use it over the drywall.  

I quite agree. Not to mention, odds are excellent that the electical wiring will need replacing. That will be worlds easier, with no plaster/lathe.

[Tom Geiger]

59 minutes ago, Jantrix said:

I quite agree. Not to mention, odds are excellent that the electical wiring will need replacing. That will be worlds easier, with no plaster/lathe.

Agreed.  Houses this old would have cloth covered wiring  and tube and knob connections.   

[89AKurt]

Does the house have the Historical brass plate?  Makes a huge difference if it's registered.

[Rob Hall]

My family 1859 Ohio farmhouse where I grew up (been in my family 51 years) has plaster lathe walls, no sheetrock except for the additions my Dad built 30+ years ago.   Hand-blown glass windows, slate roof..  it was built before indoor plumbing.    I recall my Dad reworking a lot of wiring when I was a kid.   I wouldn't want to tackle modernizing something that old.   My current 1967 house is challenging enough. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Rob Hall

[Xingu]

I worked on several commercial projects that had plaster that the owners wanted repaired/replaced. Both projects could have saved 6-figures if they would have taken down the plaster and replaced with drywall. To top it off, the plaster on both projects looked horrible.

Unless you have to keep it for historic reasons, I would go with drywall.

Looking forward to seeing what you find in the walls.

[charlie8575]

18 hours ago, Foxer said:

Hi Charlie. Athol, eh?   Isn't that where Ft. Devens is?  where I was stationed waiting for my Army medical discharge. It is wilderness out there!  eheh

You know I had am engineering/architectural consulting business here in MA and I can only say it's not worth it trying to preserve something that didn't work well to start with, it's just what they had available. I know everything is money, but you'll just lose more if you try to keep horsehair plaster. Tear it out, INSULATE and drywall it back. Do it a room at a time to keep costs down and if you know someone that can do it, all the better.

Not far. Devens stradles Ayer, Harvard, Lancaster, and Shirley. About thirty minutes east of me on Rt. 2.

11 hours ago, Jantrix said:

I quite agree. Not to mention, odds are excellent that the electical wiring will need replacing. That will be worlds easier, with no plaster/lathe.

Actually, believe it or not, quite a bit of the wiring WAS updated in the 1960s or early '70s, and most of it was done pretty well. With that said, there is a fair amount of knob-and-tube still present. I have to get an electrician in here to figure out exactly what's still live or not. I've been advised to do that by an insulation contractor before attempting to insulate anything, as insulation and knob-and-tube do not play nice together.

The repairs needed in my room and the living room are small, Spackle jobs for tiny missing areas and cracks. Not worth busting it all down yet.

The hallway is the worst of it. And out there, yes, we have every intention of adding outlets in the hall, where there are none,  plus phone jacks in each bedroom for convenient solid internet connection and because we keep a phone in the house, partially for some of the work I do now, partially because cellular service in this area is very unreliable, especially after storms. Besides, there was no difference in price with or without the phone, so why not? It's good to have a backup.

Charlie Larkin

[Jantrix]

8 hours ago, charlie8575 said:

Actually, believe it or not, quite a bit of the wiring WAS updated in the 1960s or early '70s, and most of it was done pretty well.

During that time period a lot of aluminum wiring was used. Very unsafe. Isn't home ownership fun!?

[SfanGoch]

That house will become a money pit, spending good money after bad, if you do piecemeal repairs. It will be less expensive, in the long run, to perform all necessary repairs at the same time. My ex-girlfriend's family attempted to go the cheap route when renovating a 6/5 wood frame house constructed in 1910. Many of the same issues which you are encountering. They thought that they would save money. Wrong answer. They paid through the nose because they didn't get the wiring and plumbing replaced/repaired when they had the plaster/laths replaced with sheet rock.

[espo]

Even new or newer houses are "Money Pits". I appreciate people that want to restore older homes, but with what the original builders had to work with it is amazing any of them have survived this long. You have to really love that old structure since in many cases you'll end up spending as much as a new build to bring them up to todays standards. I do wish you luck though.  

[Tom Geiger]

On 7/16/2019 at 10:00 AM, SfanGoch said:

That house will become a money pit, spending good money after bad, if you do piecemeal repairs. It will be less expensive, in the long run, to perform all necessary repairs at the same time. My ex-girlfriend's family attempted to go the cheap route when renovating a 6/5 wood frame house constructed in 1910. Many of the same issues which you are encountering. They thought that they would save money. Wrong answer. They paid through the nose because they didn't get the wiring and plumbing replaced/repaired when they had the plaster/laths replaced with sheet rock.

Same view!  My last renovation on my New Jersey house.  House was about 80 years old with good bones.  Real 2x4s and tongue and groove siding!

So I figured what the heck and did a total renovation.  New everything.  All new electric, plumbing, high efficiency heating with a/c and high efficiency water heater.  Interior included all new insulation, sheetrock, doors and molding. New carpet and flooring throughout.   All new kitchen and baths.  Added a bath. and a laundry room on second floor.  Exterior is all everything too!   Total cost was around $80,000, but it's a new house.  Haven't regretted it for a minute!

[charlie8575]

On 7/16/2019 at 9:14 AM, Jantrix said:

During that time period a lot of aluminum wiring was used. Very unsafe. Isn't home ownership fun!?

Lucked out, appears to be all-copper.

The man that owned this house for about 40 years was a plumber and knew all the good local people, so it was done right. The people who owned it immediately prior to us were...not so kind to the house, but the solid aspect is still there.

I'm planning on $50-60k over the next 3-5 years, plus whatever I have to do to get the garages straightened out.

Charlie Larkin

[charlie8575]

On 7/16/2019 at 10:00 AM, SfanGoch said:

That house will become a money pit, spending good money after bad, if you do piecemeal repairs. It will be less expensive, in the long run, to perform all necessary repairs at the same time. My ex-girlfriend's family attempted to go the cheap route when renovating a 6/5 wood frame house constructed in 1910. Many of the same issues which you are encountering. They thought that they would save money. Wrong answer. They paid through the nose because they didn't get the wiring and plumbing replaced/repaired when they had the plaster/laths replaced with sheet rock.

We have to do a little updating to the electrical. The plumbing mostly works properly, so we're leaving that alone for now.

I've pretty much decided drywall and skim-coat is the way to go for the walls, and while things are opened up, insulate what we can, probably with foam.

The major concern is the exterior- covered in asphalt shingles, and they're starting to go after 50-ish years. The good news is where I can see original claps, they look like they're in pretty good condition and have a good coat of paint on them, so there's that. The roof needs to be done, as do several windows. Right now, we have a couple of pieces of foam in the rear bedroom opening- they're gone completely.

Basically, the family that lived here before us had four kids, from talking to the neighbors. Oldest daughter is a nice girl. The other three were like the Tasmanian Devil on crack. And several poorly-behaved fosters, too. Allegations of drug dealing out of the house, and the list goes on.

My plan is to fix the worst of the problems and go from there.

Charlie Larkin

[OldTrucker]

LOL That reminds me of a place we lived when I was a kid. Downstairs apartment that was all horsehair plaster and lathe.

Grandpa made repairs as needed and took it off the rent as per the landlords instructions.

He had just patched an area that had crumbled between the back and bathroom doors. Looked great all it needed was a day and then paint.

Just before he came home from work on the day he was going to paint my sister grabbed a couple cookies that I had on the table while doing homework and took off. and ran into the bathroom! She slammed the door to lock it before I couyld ctch her and all the plaster from ceiling to floor fell off the wall, all except that small area that he had just repaired!

Yeah, we used to buy and rehab houses and lived in them while we did. We went drywall on all of them.

I wouldn't wait on doing the plumbing. Once you have the wall open just do it now and save having to rework later. You will be glad you did!

[StevenGuthmiller]

Take it from a former drywall sub-contractor of over 25 years!

Get rid of the plaster!!

You can repair it, but once it starts deteriorating, there's no going back.

You can fix one area, and it might look great, but as soon as you turn around, it will inevitably start cracking somewhere else.

It's a lot of work and a huge mess to remove plaster, but if you don't get rid of it now, you'll just keep repairing and repairing until you eventually tear it all out and replace it anyway.

 

 

 

Steve

[Belugawrx]

2 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Take it from a former drywall sub-contractor of over 25 years!

Steve

X2

And living through multiple rip and redos of my own houses..easier and cheaper and nicer looking...upgrade internals as you go...

Good Luck and Cheers Charlie, good to see you back

[StevenGuthmiller]

26 minutes ago, Belugawrx said:

X2

And living through multiple rip and redos of my own houses..easier and cheaper and nicer looking...upgrade internals as you go...

Good Luck and Cheers Charlie, good to see you back

I'm doing the same.

It is nice to be able to upgrade a few things like adding some electrical goodies as you re-model.

Fortunately, my house is newer and is already sheet rocked and dry-walled, but unfortunately it's also orange peeled, making it a little more difficult to patch.

 

 

Steve

[Tom Geiger]

3 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Fortunately, my house is newer and is already sheet rocked and dry-walled, but unfortunately it's also orange peeled, making it a little more difficult to patch

Steve, the example I showed in this thread was a house that was sheet rocked.  I decided to rip it all out and gut it for a number of reasons,  one being the multiple layers of decorating on that old sheet rock.  From orange peel, to paneling cement, to the wall paper museum (several layers) in some rooms, I just wanted new, clean surfaces to work with.  

For a small house it took a few days for a crew to gut it and less than a week to rock and tape!   Well worth it.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Tom Geiger

[StevenGuthmiller]

15 minutes ago, Tom Geiger said:

Steve, the example I showed in this thread was a house that was sheet rocked.  I decided to rip it all out and gut it for a number of reasons,  one being the multiple layers of decorating on that old sheet rock.  From orange peel, to paneling cement, to the wall paper museum (several layers) in some rooms, I just wanted new, clean surfaces to work with.  

For a small house it took a few days for a crew to gut it and less than a week to rock and tape!   Well worth it.

Yeah, once it gets to a certain point it's easier just to start over.

Me being a taper, I probably would have taken the "cheap" route if possible.

That would entail stripping the wall paper and everything else as far down as possible and then skim coating the walls.

That's plenty of work as well, but it saves on some of the mess and a lot of disposal, as well as the cost of new sheet rock throughout.

 

 

Steve

[1930fordpickup]

  Charlie figure out what you can afford to do first that will not have to be redone later. An example( Fix the roof now so it does not leak on the new drywall under it.) Fix the roof, windows and make sure you have good doors. The inside walls can be done later as far as finishing them. You do need a bathroom with privacy along with the bed rooms you and your parents use , but the rest can wait.  The sheet rock can go up and be taped later except for the kitchen because of grease. If you need to make the bathroom larger now is the time. Older parents need more room for walkers and such . We are going through this with my dad now. Off my soap box now. Good Luck Charlie. Don't forget the vent for your paint booth.

 

[Dave Ambrose]

Having done plaster work myself, I’ll add to the chorus of take it out. Done right, it has a nice, organic look to it, but it’s totally not worth the weight and trouble. 

[charlie8575]

I visited with an old friend earlier this week who has an even older house (1774, and no that's not a typo,) and he happens to be a Licensed Construction Supervisor (known to most people as a General Contractor,) and he presented an interesting idea...take out around where you need to get at for wiring, etc., and then 1/4" Sheetrock on the plaster, tape and skim-coat. As I said to him, given how badly the plaster is crumbling, I'm not sure if I like the idea or not of straight over it, but it would save quite a bit in disposal fees and labor.

Any of you pros ever try it like that?

Charlie Larkin

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, charlie8575 said:

I visited with an old friend earlier this week who has an even older house (1774, and no that's not a typo,) and he happens to be a Licensed Construction Supervisor (known to most people as a General Contractor,) and he presented an interesting idea...take out around where you need to get at for wiring, etc., and then 1/4" Sheetrock on the plaster, tape and skim-coat. As I said to him, given how badly the plaster is crumbling, I'm not sure if I like the idea or not of straight over it, but it would save quite a bit in disposal fees and labor.

Any of you pros ever try it like that?

Charlie Larkin

Certainly.

It's absolutely a viable option to sheet rock over plaster.

Have done it many times.

 

 

Steve