Modeling for fun.....again!

[iamsuperdan]

20 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

I think the term "rivet counter" is more about people who nitpick other people's stuff, which, honestly, can get annoying.  The people who are willing to sweat the small stuff on their own work, the results tend to speak for themselves.

That's a good point. I've posted builds and had people point out my inaccuracies.

"Those wheels were never offered on that year." is one comment I received.

"That interior colour is wrong, the blue is too dark."

Ugh.

If people want to get ultra accurate with their own builds, that's great. I love seeing that kind of obsession and talent. Just don't judge my builds to your standards.

For the most part, there isn't a lot of open criticism like that. Even the grumpiest of folks are pretty good and keeping that kind of negativity away from Under Glass or build threads. Every now and then though...

[Tom Geiger]

4 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

That's a good point. I've posted builds and had people point out my inaccuracies.

"Those wheels were never offered on that year." is one comment I received.

"That interior colour is wrong, the blue is too dark."

Ugh.

I had built the Monogram Dodge Ramcharger and put it out to display at a club meeting.   A resident nit-picker immediately came over to inspect.  His first comment was, "The grille wasn't blacked out on that year."   I turned to him and said, "Oh yea?  It's my truck and if it was my 1:1, I would've blacked out the friggin grille!"   People literally clapped.

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, iamsuperdan said:

That's a good point. I've posted builds and had people point out my inaccuracies.

"Those wheels were never offered on that year." is one comment I received.

"That interior colour is wrong, the blue is too dark."

Ugh.

I agree that the way that a criticism is presented can be a little coarse sometimes, but I actually welcome critique on my builds.

It helps me to learn things that I might not have known.

That is part of the reason that I love remarks on my "on the bench" threads.

I have been "directed" many times for things that I had wrong, and I am grateful for it.

I just try to take criticism in the context that the commentator is trying to help me, not bash me.

 

 

Steve 

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Tom Geiger said:

I had built the Monogram Dodge Ramcharger and put it out to display at a club meeting.   A resident nit-picker immediately came over to inspect.  His first comment was, "The grille wasn't blacked out on that year."   I turned to him and said, "Oh yea?  It's my truck and if it was my 1:1, I would've blacked out the friggin grille!"   People literally clapped.

I remember a similar circumstance that I had at a show when an individual commented after looking at a 1961 Buick Invicta model that I had displayed, that "it looked great, but that the tail light lenses were supposed to be all red without the chrome "ribs" that the Electra had that year".

It really didn't bother me.

I just said, "oh, okay, I didn't know that", and chalked it up as a learning experience.

 

The funny part of the story is that sometime later, the same individual approached me and apologized because he realized that he was wrong.

"The Invicta did indeed have the chrome bands, and it was the LeSabre that did not", he stated.

 

This experience cemented in my mind that not all criticisms are necessarily designed to wound, and I try not to take them as such.

 

 

 

Steve 

[Modelbuilder Mark]

29 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I agree that the way that a criticism is presented can be a little coarse sometimes, but I actually welcome critique on my builds.

It helps me to learn things that I might not have known.

That is part of the reason that I love remarks on my "on the bench" threads.

I have been "directed" many times for things that I had wrong, and I am grateful for it.

I just try to take criticism in the context that the commentator is trying to help me, not bash me.

Steve, I agree that there can be benefit to criticism, however, I think it needs to be understood and respected that not everyone is asking for it.

Think of your LEAST favorite hairstyle you wide has ever had. Unless she specifically asks you what you think of the hair, ask yourself, how would she take it if you said, "That hair does is just wrong for your face, and does not suit you at all" Regardless of intent, I would wager it would not go over well.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Modelbuilder Mark

[peteski]

2 hours ago, Modelbuilder Mark said:

Steve, I agree that there can be benefit to criticism, however, I think it needs to be understood and respected that not everyone is asking for it.

 

So how do you know when someone posting a build thread in the "on the bench" section is or isn't receptive to hints or criticism?

With a wife or significant other, you might have made that mistake once, but you quickly learned to keep your opinions to yourself unless specifically asked for them (and even then, walk on eggshells). But here we are just bunch of single-minded individuals (buddies) showing the progress of our builds.  Unless you had previous experience with certain member, you really don't know if someone is receptive to constructive comments or not.

[David G.]

5 hours ago, peteski said:

So how do you know when someone posting a build thread in the "on the bench" section is or isn't receptive to hints or criticism?

With a wife or significant other, you might have made that mistake once, but you quickly learned to keep your opinions to yourself unless specifically asked for them (and even then, walk on eggshells). But here we are just bunch of single-minded individuals (buddies) showing the progress of our builds.  Unless you had previous experience with certain member, you really don't know if someone is receptive to constructive comments or not.

Hi Peter,

A few years ago on this forum, we had some trouble with members posting unsolicited and sometimes less than polite comments on the build threads of other members. The situation got rather out of hand resulting in a number of people being permanently banned from the forum.

As a result of that, on my build threads I post a closing line that gives express permission to post comments: "As always, thank you for taking the time to stop and look and please feel free to comment."

David G.

[randyc]

All my builds would be considered "day 2" cars.  LOL.  I get them close to right as I find on the internet, but I never worry about perfection on everything.   The manufacturers use a particular car for their tooling and what if it's wrong?  Then we are all wrong.  And if our reference car photos have something slightly off, we copy that and our is forever wrong?  Meh.  My family doesn't care or know.  And you guys are about the only others that see my builds.  I'd rather have or see a well-built slightly inaccurate build than one with perfect 1:1 details and a parting line looking at me.  however, if someone chooses to leave that, I am not calling them out on it on teh forum.  That may be the next thing they learn.   Took me years of modeling before I learned (from you guys usually) to clean this stuff up.  Whatever makes and keeps it fun.

[Snake45]

8 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

This experience cemented in my mind that not all criticisms are necessarily designed to wound, and I try not to take them as such.

Steve 

My takeaway would have been that not all criticisms are valid. 

[Snake45]

3 minutes ago, randyc said:

I'd rather have or see a well-built slightly inaccurate build than one with perfect 1:1 details and a parting line looking at me.  

It's like you're reading my mind! 

[randyc]

Well.... we do "talk" a lot on the diecast section - we have a pretty regular group there.  And we kinda all think similarly, I've noticed.

[iamsuperdan]

9 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I agree that the way that a criticism is presented can be a little coarse sometimes, but I actually welcome critique on my builds.

It helps me to learn things that I might not have known.

That is part of the reason that I love remarks on my "on the bench" threads.

I have been "directed" many times for things that I had wrong, and I am grateful for it.

I just try to take criticism in the context that the commentator is trying to help me, not bash me.

 

 

Steve 

I'm all for critique, and welcome it. But with the talk lately about being civil, how info is presented is a big deal.

Constructive criticism vs criticism. Big difference. 

 

 

[Tom Geiger]

9 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I agree that the way that a criticism is presented can be a little coarse sometimes, but I actually welcome critique on my builds.

It helps me to learn things that I might not have known.

That is part of the reason that I love remarks on my "on the bench" threads.

I have been "directed" many times for things that I had wrong, and I am grateful for it.

I just try to take criticism in the context that the commentator is trying to help me, not bash me.

Steve 

I post on the "On The Bench"  and am grateful for comments that are helpful while the build is in progress.  As you said, it helps me get to a better end result.  In fact I take frequent pictures as I progress to spot issues myself, and then post them hoping others will spot the things I didn't.  Some times you get too used to looking at something to notice something on it is wrong. It's helpful to have a second (3rd,4th etc) set of eyes on it!

Irony is that when you post "On The Bench", you'll get 40 comments that just say  "cool!" and your first comment once it's "Under Glass"  is  "Ya know, the roof line is completely off on that kit...yada, yada!"  (that actually happened!)

[StevenGuthmiller]

13 hours ago, peteski said:

So how do you know when someone posting a build thread in the "on the bench" section is or isn't receptive to hints or criticism?

I don't know.

I suppose that might be an issue.

I guess it has just been my perception that if you're not here to possibly advance your building skills, I'm not sure why you would be here at all.

A forum is designed as a place to exchange ideas, and that's how I regard it.

Otherwise I suppose that a person might be here just to offer their knowledge and not to learn anything?

Seems useless to me.

But, I guess if that's a person's thing, so be it.

 

I generally will only offer a tip without prompting if it is someone whom I consider a "friend" on the board.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

7 hours ago, Snake45 said:

My takeaway would have been that not all criticisms are valid. 

Also true.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

6 hours ago, Tom Geiger said:

I post on the "On The Bench"  and am grateful for comments that are helpful while the build is in progress.  As you said, it helps me get to a better end result.  In fact I take frequent pictures as I progress to spot issues myself, and then post them hoping others will spot the things I didn't.  Some times you get too used to looking at something to notice something on it is wrong. It's helpful to have a second (3rd,4th etc) set of eyes on it!

Irony is that when you post "On The Bench", you'll get 40 comments that just say  "cool!" and your first comment once it's "Under Glass"  is  "Ya know, the roof line is completely off on that kit...yada, yada!"  (that actually happened!)

Maybe I'm just weird, but I consider all criticisms welcome, regardless of whether they are offered in the midst of a build, or after it's finished.

I don't always heed advice taken, but it is still welcome.

I have never learned a thing in my life by closing my mind.

I like to think that we are all here to not only display our skills and techniques, but to advance them.

I couldn't begin to tell you how much I have learned, (much of it through critique) since I became a member here, and I feel I am much richer for it.

 

I agree with a lot of the comments here that the way that a critique is offered can be a night or day difference, but I also feel that if a person has any tact at all, he should be able to offer an evaluation without being offensive.

 

 

Steve

[Xingu]

7 hours ago, Snake45 said:

My takeaway would have been that not all criticisms are valid. 

That is the exact thing I took away from that story.

Rivet counter and accurate builder are two different things to me. A rivet counter is an accurate builder that lacks people skills. We have lots of accurate builders here and very few rivet counters.

[GaryR]

Criticism is great if it's wanted.

I see minor mistakes in drag cars posted very often, usually tires, classes, setback etc. But so what.

It bugs ME, but who am I to criticize unless i'm asked.  What is second nature to me as a 66 year old guy who has gone to drag races since 1965 ISN'T to most model builders. What we have in common is racing, models and hopefully a sense of fun. It just isn't vital or all that important. People post their models because they are pleased and happy with them, not so they can be raked over the coals. I have better things to do than ruin someone else's good time because I am "right"!

This kind of stuff ruins many real car events too. I don't think I've ever attended a show or race where I haven't heard some blowhard's just ridiculous comments on something! 

AGAIN, my intent in this thread was to prevent myself from sabotaging my own efforts, how it (the thread ) turned into criticizing others is beyond me.

Like most , I am my own worst critic. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by GaryR

[Scott8950]

if i see or notice something i still don't say anything just as personal choice because everyone does not possess the same talent or skill level. if i do something wrong I've always wanted to know so i don't make the same mistake twice. I learned as i have gotten older that some things that are extremely important to some people just doesn't matter to others. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

47 minutes ago, GaryR said:

Criticism is great if it's wanted.

I see minor mistakes in drag cars posted very often, usually tires, classes, setback etc. But so what.

It bugs ME, but who am I to criticize unless i'm asked.  What is second nature to me as a 66 year old guy who has gone to drag races since 1965 ISN'T to most model builders. What we have in common is racing, models and hopefully a sense of fun. It just isn't vital or all that important. People post their models because they are pleased and happy with them, not so they can be raked over the coals. I have better things to do than ruin someone else's good time because I am "right"!

This kind of stuff ruins many real car events too. I don't think I've ever attended a show or race where I haven't heard some blowhard's just ridiculous comments on something! 

AGAIN, my intent in this thread was to prevent myself from sabotaging my own efforts, how it (the thread ) turned into criticizing others is beyond me.

Like most , I am my own worst critic. 

Every thread has the tendency to morph into other subjects.

It's just the nature of the beast.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

42 minutes ago, Scott8950 said:

 if i do something wrong I've always wanted to know so i don't make the same mistake twice.

This is why I feel that a civilized critique is so valuable.

I would want to know.

Apparently not everyone feels this way.

 

 

This circumstance may not be a perfect parallel to offering criticism to a builders work outright, but it has some merit on the subject.

 

Recently, on another thread, an individual offered the fact that he had recently sprayed Duplicolor automotive touch up paint directly over a plastic kit body with no adverse affect.

Should we just ignore it because of the possibility that the individual might feel that he is being attacked, or should we warn that this was obviously an exception and not the rule.

I think that any of us that have tried this will attest that it's not the best idea and it might be a good service to warn other members who might not be as advanced in their knowledge of painting techniques and unaware of the possible consequences.

 

Should we just mind our own business and shut up for fear of starting an argument, or should we try to offer our experience in the event that another individual thinks that this is normal practice and ruins his brand new $35.00 kit body?

 

This type of scenario is why I feel that more information is always better than none.

Just my opinion.

 

 

Steve

Edited August 21, 2019 by StevenGuthmiller

[GaryR]

"I think that any of us that have tried this will attest that it's not the best idea and it might be a good service to warn other members who might not be as advanced in their knowledge of painting techniques and unaware of the possible consequences."

That is quite different than rivet counting. come on! I don't think that applies here in the least.

 

"Every thread has the tendency to morph into other subjects.

It's just the nature of the beast. "

 Yeah, except my original post was meant to be POSITIVE and some comments here are decidedly negative.

[iamsuperdan]

2 hours ago, Xingu said:

 

Rivet counter and accurate builder are two different things to me. A rivet counter is an accurate builder that lacks people skills. We have lots of accurate builders here and very few rivet counters.

Well said. I like this definition.

45 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

 

This circumstance may not be a perfect parallel to offering criticism to a builders work outright, but it has some merit on the subject.

Recently, on another thread, an individual offered the fact that he had recently sprayed Duplicolor automotive touch up paint directly over a plastic kit body with no adverse affect.

Should we just ignore it because of the possibility that the individual might feel that he is being attacked, or should we warn that this was obviously an exception and not the rule.

I think that any of us that have tried this will attest that it's not the best idea and it might be a good service to warn other members who might not be as advanced in their knowledge of painting techniques and unaware of the possible consequences.

Should we just mind our own business and shut up for fear of starting an argument, or should we try to offer our experience in the event that another individual thinks that this is normal practice and ruins his brand new $35.00 kit body?

 

In your scenario, here are two responses. Responses I have seen around here on several occasions.

 

Option 1: "Well, you screwed that up didn't you? Automotive paint on plastic. Good grief."

or

Option 2: "As an FYI, you might have some issues with this in the future. Automotive paints have a solvent that can soften plastic, and this could lead to warping."

 

The idea of have a nice and civilized response has come up before. And there is an active member here who specifically said that the nice response was just sugarcoating things for snowflakes who can't handle criticism.

I don't know...which response was more helpful to the builder?

 

 

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

24 minutes ago, GaryR said:

That is quite different than rivet counting. come on! I don't think that applies here in the least.

The discussion has also gone in the direction of "criticism".

That's where my comments apply.

 

Rivet counting in my opinion is just a derogatory term for a style of building.

Someone who values very high detail and accuracy.

Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with a more simplified, free form approach.

It only becomes an issue when one camp begins to "criticize" the other for their style, which as far as I'm concerned, has no place on the board.

There is no right or wrong in this aspect of the hobby.

 

32 minutes ago, GaryR said:

some comments here are decidedly negative.

I haven't seen much as far as negative comments so far in this thread.

Just a discussion with different views on various facets of the subject.

 

 

As far as an answer to your original question goes, yes, I tone down the intensity on my projects all of the time.

It doesn't need to be all one way or the other.

A person can build a highly detailed model, and then do a simple curbside with the next.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

5 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

Well said. I like this definition.

In your scenario, here are two responses. Responses I have seen around here on several occasions.

 

Option 1: "Well, you screwed that up didn't you? Automotive paint on plastic. Good grief."

or

Option 2: "As an FYI, you might have some issues with this in the future. Automotive paints have a solvent that can soften plastic, and this could lead to warping."

 

The idea of have a nice and civilized response has come up before. And there is an active member here who specifically said that the nice response was just sugarcoating things for snowflakes who can't handle criticism.

I don't know...which response was more helpful to the builder?

 

 

 

I agree 100%.

Option one is a ridiculous and counterproductive statement!

But occasionally, even option 2 causes some individuals to get their panties in a bunch.

It's hard to gauge how a person will take criticism, but sometimes I feel like it is warranted for the benefit of the other members.

 

 

As far as the member with the "sugar coating" statement goes, that's where the "tact" remark that I made comes into play.

I can guarantee you that that member would undoubtedly be offended if he was on the receiving end of "option 2".

The fight would undeniably be on!  

 

 

By the way, it was crazing that I was worried about rather than warping.

 

 

 

Steve