Why these insanely overly complex cars will be junk when the dealers no longer maintain repair parts...

[Rodent]

2 hours ago, keyser said:

Can’t fix stupid. 
Ford cooled seats are amazing though. Black Exploder on 102 degree day, I was amazed. 

Never owned a car with cooled seats, but had two rental Cadillacs with them over the years. The DTS ones were meh, but the CTS ones were amazing and cut down the need for A/C. They were also useful for distributing farts to the other passengers in very short order.

[Ace-Garageguy]

43 minutes ago, Rodent said:

...They were also useful for distributing farts to the other passengers in very short order.

Classy fella.

[sfhess]

My brother has a 2004 Ram 1500 pickup with the 5.7 engine.  Recently the check engine light came on, along with a lightning bolt indicator, which indicates an issue with the throttle position sensor. The truck quit running on the street and would crank but not start. Following advice we replaced the throttle body.  Still no start.  We discovered that there is a pedal position sensor that is connected to the throttle pedal by a cable and connected to the engine control module.  This sensor is no longer carried by Dodge and is difficult to source from a parts store.  Mercedes used this sensor on several vehicles and it is available at their dealerships.  Unfortunately, while the sensor looks identical, the connector on the sensor is different.  We found a sensor that looked fairly new at the local pick-yer-part yard and installed it.  After replacing the sensor we finally got the truck to run.  All this after several days of head scratching and running around.

[Rob Hall]

2 hours ago, Rodent said:

Never owned a car with cooled seats, but had two rental Cadillacs with them over the years. The DTS ones were meh, but the CTS ones were amazing and cut down the need for A/C. They were also useful for distributing farts to the other passengers in very short order.S 

I liked them in my STS...my DTS had heated seats, the STS heated and cooled seats.  Both of my Grand Cherokees have had heated seats, which are great in winter in Ohio..

[Rob Hall]

3 minutes ago, sfhess said:

My brother has a 2004 Ram 1500 pickup with the 5.7 engine.  Recently the check engine light came on, along with a lightning bolt indicator, which indicates an issue with the throttle position sensor. The truck quit running on the street and would crank but not start. Following advice we replaced the throttle body.  Still no start.  We discovered that there is a pedal position sensor that is connected to the throttle pedal by a cable and connected to the engine control module.  This sensor is no longer carried by Dodge and is difficult to source from a parts store.  Mercedes used this sensor on several vehicles and it is available at their dealerships.  Unfortunately, while the sensor looks identical, the connector on the sensor is different.  We found a sensor that looked fairly new at the local pick-yer-part yard and installed it.  After replacing the sensor we finally got the truck to run.  All this after several days of head scratching and running around.

IIRC, that was one of the sensors on my '00 Grand Cherokee that went bad over 10 years ago... and the crank position sensor.  IIRC, neither threw a check engine light.  The crank position sensor issue happened once on the freeway, shut off while I was driving at 70 mph..had to coast to the side of the road and call AAA for a tow.  Shop had it for a day, replaced the battery terminals, checked everything, couldn't figure it out.  A day later, it wouldn't start after work..another 30 mile AAA tow.   2nd time at the shop they figured it out.   All the sensors and electronics that go bad north of 100,000 miles are part of why I don't plan to keep my current GC past 100k.

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 hours ago, Rob Hall said:

...All the sensors and electronics that go bad north of 100,000 miles are part of why I don't plan to keep my current GC past 100k.

And I sincerely thank you for perfectly reinforcing the original point of the thread.

Vehicles over 100k miles are generally on their second or third owners, and will be essentially useless to working people who can't afford the complex diagnostics and expensive repairs.

EDIT: And yes, older vehicles have always needed repairs too. But what a lot of people seem to want to deny is that due to the complexity of "modern" stuff, the cost of repairs is proportionally much higher than it's ever been before.

Add that to not-great parts support, you have an aging fleet of vehicles that aren't cost-effective to keep in service for the average used-car owner.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Brudda]

On 2/20/2022 at 12:06 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Contrary to a lot of rebleated misinformation, manufacturers are not necessarily required to maintain stocks of parts for vehicles that are out of OEM warranty.  (EDIT: though they are required to keep parts "available" for emissions-related systems). Many electronic modules and devices are simply not available from the aftermarket currently, and those that are are frequently of poor quality and don't last long. The car in this vid is going to have to go to a Jag dealer because of so many interrelated trouble codes, and due to the age of the thing, the owner may be SOL. I've seen the estimated cost of repairs on newer vehicles exceed the value of the vehicle by a significant margin.

EDIT: Those fancy "multi speed (8+)" automatic gearboxes are particularly expensive to replace, and many necessary repair parts are just not available anywhere.

This is a dose of reality for everybody who truly believes newer is automatically better.

Unfortunately, this is very typical of what we're seeing more and more frequently...and some manufacturers are adding additional layers to the computer interface so that independent shops can't even talk to them AT ALL.

 

 

 

Yes this is true. I was a BMW tech and it was all about the money. They would have codes come up so you would have to take it to the dealer. Each code was usually $ 600, and there were several. A quick scan and cleared codes and pay $2400 for 4 codes. Not bad for 5 minutes of work. Of course the computer cost a fortune but BMW did not care. Mercedes, Porsche, are the same. Have not heard anything about Volvo, this is why I do not work for them anymore. The moral value is zero with those companies. Watch Scotty Kilmer on you tube and he tells the truth . Kind of a funny guy but is tellling the truth. 

[BlackSheep214]

I know I mentioned I think heated seats are a big waste of $$$$$. However, my 2022 Hyundai Kona is equipped with heated side mirrors. Now that is worth having especially if you hate scraping ice or hard frost off the side mirrors with a scraper.

[Joe Handley]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:20 PM, Rob Hall said:

IIRC, that was one of the sensors on my '00 Grand Cherokee that went bad over 10 years ago... and the crank position sensor.  IIRC, neither threw a check engine light.  The crank position sensor issue happened once on the freeway, shut off while I was driving at 70 mph..had to coast to the side of the road and call AAA for a tow.  Shop had it for a day, replaced the battery terminals, checked everything, couldn't figure it out.  A day later, it wouldn't start after work..another 30 mile AAA tow.   2nd time at the shop they figured it out.   All the sensors and electronics that go bad north of 100,000 miles are part of why I don't plan to keep my current GC past 100k.

If that was a 4.0l in that '00 Grand you had, that should have been the 1st place to look, that sensor has always been an issue with that engine, going all the way back to the Renix EFI days on the XJ and MJ.

[1972coronet]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:12 PM, sfhess said:

My brother has a 2004 Ram 1500 pickup with the 5.7 engine.  Recently the check engine light came on, along with a lightning bolt indicator, which indicates an issue with the throttle position sensor. [...] Following advice we replaced the throttle body.  Still no start.  We discovered that there is a pedal position sensor that is connected to the throttle pedal by a cable and connected to the engine control module.  This sensor is no longer carried by Dodge and is difficult to source from a parts store.  Mercedes used this sensor on several vehicles and it is available at their dealerships.  Unfortunately, while the sensor looks identical, the connector on the sensor is different.  We found a sensor that looked fairly new at the local pick-yer-part yard and installed it.  After replacing the sensor we finally got the truck to run.  All this after several days of head scratching and running around.

Ah, yes... that's the "T.P.S."  Sensor ( Total Piece of S__t ). Daimler really screwed up Dodge et al. with their Daimler's overcomplicated garbage -- and an engine series that rivals that of the Vega.

[sfhess]

47 minutes ago, 1972coronet said:

Ah, yes... that's the "T.P.S."  Sensor ( Total Piece of S__t ). Daimler really screwed up Dodge et al. with their Daimler's overcomplicated garbage -- and an engine series that rivals that of the Vega.

It's a real  Mickey Mouse deal.

 

[mikemodeler]

As an employee of a major OEM parts manufacturer (6th largest in the world), the rationale for how long a part stays available has several determining factors:

1. Sales performance- if it is selling well, it hangs on for years. We still sell a good number of parts for vehicles from the 70's and 80's. Conversely we have discontinued parts from cars that were sold 10 years ago.

2. Production capacity- if there are parts we are set to produce for a new model or model year, we have to have room and equipment to do that. We study life cycles of parts and make decisions based on profitability and viability. Makes more sense to build parts that make you money than those that don't.

3. Tooling costs- if the tooling is getting worn down and needs to be rebuilt, the above two factors play a part in the decision to rebuild them or to scrap them.

4. Component costs and supply- in some cases additional parts are supplied to us to build an assembly (Tier 1, Tier 2 suppliers) and if they have difficulties in producing those components, they force us to discontinue our production.

5. Aftermarket competition- if the automotive aftermarket is producing a copy of the part we originally designed and is selling it significantly cheaper, that plays into our decision as well because it likely is affecting our sales. The aftermarket has determined that their "sweet spot" (highest potential selling sector) for most parts is 5-12 year old vehicles. Simply put, that means 2010-2017 model years represent their most profitable opportunities as vehicles are out of warranty and car owners are likely to repair them with higher quality parts. Most companies have parts for cars that go back 20 or more years, but once the sales tail off they focus on the sweet spot.

 

We manufacture parts for OEM that will never get sold in the aftermarket due to their complexity or almost zero failure rate. They are available from a dealership but again, likely not going to fail.

[Rob Hall]

21 hours ago, Joe Handley said:

If that was a 4.0l in that '00 Grand you had, that should have been the 1st place to look, that sensor has always been an issue with that engine, going all the way back to the Renix EFI days on the XJ and MJ.

Yeah, 4.0L.  It was my neighborhood independent shop I took it to.  Maybe if I had gone to a dealer would have found the issue faster. Long ago and far away…

[Mark]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:19 PM, Rodent said:

They were also useful for distributing farts to the other passengers in very short order.

Will the next version include an alert that blames it on the dog?

[Ace-Garageguy]

21 minutes ago, Mark said:

Will the next version include an alert that blames it on the dog?

Have to blame somebody, that's for sure.

Next to diddling on the phone all day, blaming someone else for everything is today's number one activity.

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 hours ago, Rob Hall said:

...Maybe if I had gone to a dealer would have found the issue faster. Long ago and far away…

Or maybe if you'd gone to a competent independent.

Up until fairly recently, OEM-level technical info and diagnostics have been available to any independent smart enough to access and use it, and it's still available for a whole lotta stuff...but OEMs are increasingly adding "security" features to the computer interfaces to lock out non-factory-authorized repairers (which we've touched on before here).

Edited March 16, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Plowboy]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Or maybe if you'd gone to a competent independent.

 

Therein lies the problem. Finding a competent or honest independent. There's exactly one in my area. But, he's down to only doing simple repairs. The rest are liars and have the skills barely above mine. My niece just got ripped off on a water pump repair by an independent. He told her the water pump cost over $700. I called the dealership and was quoted $158. But, it was too late since she was supposed to pick it up the next day. I going to tell her to go back and have him show her the invoice for her water pump. It'll be interesting to see if he can produce it. Total charge was over $2300! Same repair at the dealership, just over $1600. If your car needs a serious repair, check with the dealership first.  

[mikemodeler]

1 minute ago, Plowboy said:

Therein lies the problem. Finding a competent or honest independent. There's exactly one in my area. But, he's down to only doing simple repairs. The rest are liars and have the skills barely above mine. My niece just got ripped off on a water pump repair by an independent. He told her the water pump cost over $700. I called the dealership and was quoted $158. But, it was too late since she was supposed to pick it up the next day. I going to tell her to go back and have him show her the invoice for her water pump. It'll be interesting to see if he can produce it. Total charge was over $2300! Same repair at the dealership, just over $1600. If your car needs a serious repair, check with the dealership first.  

Sounds like it was more than a water pump if it was $2300. Just had the timing belt, tensioners , water pump and drive belt on a 2010 Honda Accord done for about $1,000, included $600 in labor.

I always tell family and friends to get multiple quotes and compare what work is being done. Most of us do that on other large repairs/projects so why not on an auto repair.

 

[Plowboy]

23 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Sounds like it was more than a water pump if it was $2300. Just had the timing belt, tensioners , water pump and drive belt on a 2010 Honda Accord done for about $1,000, included $600 in labor.

I always tell family and friends to get multiple quotes and compare what work is being done. Most of us do that on other large repairs/projects so why not on an auto repair.

 

No, just the water pump. It's a 12 hours job according to the dealership (internal water pump). Of course, the independent claims it's a 16 hours job.  

[Rodent]

14 minutes ago, Plowboy said:

No, just the water pump. It's a 12 hours job according to the dealership (internal water pump). Of course, the independent claims it's a 16 hours job.  

If it was a Ford V6 (like an Exploder) with an internal pump, a typical repair is "replace with known good engine" due to coolant in the crankcase.

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 hours ago, Plowboy said:

Therein lies the problem. Finding a competent or honest independent. There's exactly one in my area. But, he's down to only doing simple repairs. The rest are liars and have the skills barely above mine...

Exactly...and people who know little to nothing about how cars operate are at the mercy of every moron, jackleg, thief, and shyster who calls himself a "mechanic".

In the days prior to electronically-controlled everything, it was a helluva lot simpler for the average car owner to understand enough of the basics to at least have a clue as to whether he was getting hosed or not, but not so today.

And it's just going to get worse.

Couple that with idiot designers who do insanely stupid things like "internal" water pumps, and unnecessarily running EVERY vehicle system through the central ECM...jeez. After 5 decades, it's hard for me to believe how bad things are in the car biz now...and everyone wants to argue about how wonderful all the late-model stuff is. 

Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.

[Plowboy]

3 hours ago, Rodent said:

If it was a Ford V6 (like an Exploder) with an internal pump, a typical repair is "replace with known good engine" due to coolant in the crankcase.

It's a Ford 3.5 with over 160,000 miles. I would have traded it as the repair was close to half of what the entire car would be worth. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:10 AM, Brudda said:

...Watch Scotty Kilmer on you tube and he tells the truth . Kind of a funny guy but is tellling the truth. 

 

Entertaining guy, 53 years actually fixing cars, tells it like it is.   

 

 

 

[Brudda]

14 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

Entertaining guy, 53 years actually fixing cars, tells it like it is.   

 

 

 

I love this guy! I’ve been a tech since 1970 . And have not said a lot about car companies. He just lets it rip! But it’s the truth. 

[sfhess]

1 hour ago, Plowboy said:

It's a Ford 3.5 with over 160,000 miles. I would have traded it as the repair was close to half of what the entire car would be worth. 

I have a 2004 Explorer with the 4.0 SOHC engine.  204,000 miles.  They are famous for eating cam chain tensioners and guides.  The passenger side cam chain is at the rear.  Another genius engineering job.  I cross my fingers every time I turn the key.