B-17 and P-63 King Cobra gone for ever

[Mike 1017]

There was a low-level mid-air collision between the 2 at a Dallas Air Show yesterday. The Air Show is an annual Veterans Day affair.

The polit of the King Cobra is being blamed for the crash. He was flying too close to the B-17. Regardless of who is to blame it is such a tragedy. 
Mike

[Ace-Garageguy]

More info halfway down this page:

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

The causes can only be one of these:

1) Mechanical failure of something in the flight control system of the P-63. Since aircraft parts are subject to rigorous inspection, they don't just "break", so a failure would come down to human error during restoration or maintenance. Not a frequent occurrence, but it happens. I've worked with a few A&Ps I wouldn't let put gas in a lawnmower. 

I know of a fatal King Air crash, shortly after takeoff, where an "A&P" with a bogus license failed to properly reconnect the ailerons during a 100-hour inspection.

2) A massive medical issue experienced by the P-63 pilot, causing him to lose consciousness and control of the aircraft. This has been known to happen.

3) Absolute incompetence on the part of the P-63 pilot, or unfamiliarity with the aircraft. Possible, but not likely.

4) Deliberate collision. Extremely unlikely.

5) B-17 being in the 'wrong place' according to planned maneuvers during the show, but it would still be the responsibility of the P-63 pilot to not fly into it.

It will be interesting to see the NHTSA/FAA findings from the investigation.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY and ACCURACY

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[ranma]

Bill, From that last video it looks as the B-17 had a full air crew aboard. My they rest in peace!  Sad day not only for the loss of the two aircraft, but for also the people whom lost their lives ...

[OldTrucker]

1 hour ago, ranma said:

Bill, From that last video it looks as the B-17 had a full air crew aboard. My they rest in peace!  Sad day not only for the loss of the two aircraft, but for also the people whom lost their lives ...

In an interview they said it was a crew of 5 which is what was on board when I had my ride a few years back.

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[Calb56]

My son works for a FBO company and sent me an early video of that right after it happened. He also is interested about the investigation and why it happened. His first thought was concerning the small aircraft...

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[Rodent]

4 hours ago, ranma said:

Sad day not only for the loss of the two aircraft, but for also the people whom lost their lives ...

And after losing B-17 Nine-O-Nine in 2019.

[Ace-Garageguy]

6 minutes ago, Rodent said:

And after losing B-17 Nine-O-Nine in 2019.

Yup. That one was a combination of problems with two magnetos somebody should have caught (initially blamed on wet mags, but the investigation revealed simple internal defects any A&P should have noticed), and a a few unfortunate pilot decisions.

[vamach1]

2 hours ago, Rodent said:

And after losing B-17 Nine-O-Nine in 2019.

I was shocked there was another horrific crash involving a B-17.  I rode on Nine-O-Nine about ten years ago and we flew alongside a P-51.

[stavanzer]

One Video early mentioned that the "Airboss" (who has control of all the Airplanes in the air during the show) had called the P-63 to "move up past the B-17". or "Overtake the B-17".

If that indeed turns out to be the case, that will explain much of what happened.

Bill is right. Watch Juan Browne" aka "Blancoliro" that he linked up above. He is one of the very best Aviation guys on YouTube. He knows his stuff and tells the truth. Dan Gryder is okay, but Blancoliro is just better.

This and the '909' incident are going to put a stop to Warbird Airshows eventually. 6 dead men, and 2 unique planes gone, and families traumatized. The upside to watching these shows is getting smaller and smaller. It is time to stop.

I say this a a Dedicated Airshow Chaser. from 1981 to 1995 I went to many Airshows, and I love the Warbirds. But, sadly, it is time to ground these planes and preserve what is left. 

[TransAmMike]

20 minutes ago, stavanzer said:

One Video early mentioned that the "Airboss" (who has control of all the Airplanes in the air during the show) had called the P-63 to "move up past the B-17". or "Overtake the B-17".

If that indeed turns out to be the case, that will explain much of what happened.

Bill is right. Watch Juan Browne" aka "Blancoliro" that he linked up above. He is one of the very best Aviation guys on YouTube. He knows his stuff and tells the truth. Dan Gryder is okay, but Blancoliro is just better.

This and the '909' incident are going to put a stop to Warbird Airshows eventually. 6 dead men, and 2 unique planes gone, and families traumatized. The upside to watching these shows is getting smaller and smaller. It is time to stop.

I say this a a Dedicated Airshow Chaser. from 1981 to 1995 I went to many Airshows, and I love the Warbirds. But, sadly, it is time to ground these planes and preserve what is left. 

I certainly agree with you Alan.   Sadly, this tragedy should be the last for the old warbirds

[RSchnell]

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out in regards to future airshow performances. With ever rising insurance costs, fuel, parts availability I think it's going to see a number of warbirds parked. My hometown has a rather large airshow every year and I've noticed the diminishing number of WW2 era warbirds the past several years. You can only look at so many T-6's & T-28's! 

I've been fortunate to get photos and walk/climb thru several B-17s at this show including 909, Texas Raiders, EAA's Aluminum Overcast, Tallichet's Movie Memphis Belle. Kermit Weeks' place is just down the road but most of his collection is not up for public viewing.

[BlackSheep214]

 

14 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

The causes can only be one of these:

1) Mechanical failure of something in the flight control system of the P-63. Since aircraft parts are subject to rigorous inspection, they don't just "break", so a failure would come down to human error during restoration or maintenance. Not a frequent occurrence, but it happens. I've worked with a few A&Ps I wouldn't let put gas in a lawnmower. 

I know of a fatal King Air crash, shortly after takeoff, where an "A&P" with a bogus license failed to properly reconnect the ailerons during a 100-hour inspection.

2) A massive medical issue experienced by the P-63 pilot, causing him to lose consciousness and control of the aircraft. This has been known to happen.

3) Absolute incompetence on the part of the P-63 pilot, or unfamiliarity with the aircraft. Possible, but not likely.

4) Deliberate collision. Extremely unlikely.

5) B-17 being in the 'wrong place' according to planned maneuvers during the show, but it would still be the responsibility of the P-63 pilot to not fly into it.

It will be interesting to see the NHTSA/FAA findings from the investigation.

My take...

I disagree on all 5 points. This is straight up pilot error and/or reckless flying. The KingCobra was coming in fast on his turn and literally clipped the Fort in half. A B-17 Fortress isn’t a fast bomber but the KingCobra sure is since it is a fighter plane.

This is a gut wrenching tragedy. Several people died, two WW2 era aircrafts no more. Plain stupidity for hotdogging during an air show. This now brings the total of flyable B-17 Forts down to less than 5. There are a total of about 10 surviving B-17s - most on static display or in museums.

Will the investigation prevent future air shows from flying WW2 era aircrafts? No. But it won’t be too surprising they put a stop to pilots doing crazy stunts around other vintage aircrafts in the air. 

Don’t be a bit surprised they fault the pilot of the KingCobra. 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by BlackSheep214

[slusher]

Sad for the loss of life.  I hear often of air show tragedies often. Are they that dangerous?

[ChrisBcritter]

5 hours ago, BlackSheep214 said:

There are a total of about 10 surviving B-17s - most on static display or in museums.

It's more than that - the current total of surviving B-17s is 46 (after the losses of Nine-O-Nine and Texas Raiders). Several are currently being restored to fly; a couple are being recreated mostly from scratch.

(I worked on the third and fifth editions of Scott Thompson's book Final Cut: The Post-War B-17 Flying Fortress and Survivors as a proofreader and editor.)

[Ace-Garageguy]

9 hours ago, BlackSheep214 said:

 

My take...

I disagree on all 5 points. This is straight up pilot error and/or reckless flying. The KingCobra was coming in fast on his turn and literally clipped the Fort in half. A B-17 Fortress isn’t a fast bomber but the KingCobra sure is since it is a fighter plane.

This is a gut wrenching tragedy. Several people died, two WW2 era aircrafts no more. Plain stupidity for hotdogging during an air show.

Don’t be a bit surprised they fault the pilot of the KingCobra. 

I covered that under 3) Absolute incompetence on the part of the P-63 pilot.

Incompetence would include recklessness. A competent pilot is not reckless.

But I really have to tell you...the guys who fly these things are very rarely hot-dogging idiots who mindlessly endanger lives and irreplaceable machinery.

And the P-63 pilot is just as dead as the crew of the 17, his friends and family are just as distraught, and a medical event causing unconsciousness would appear exactly as this does. My own father died instantly from a massive heart attack, with no warning, while sitting in a friend's car.

So out of simple human decency, it might be good to wait for the investigation to play out.

And just FYI...two or more airplanes are "AIRCRAFT", no "S".

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[oldnslow]

wow

[NOBLNG]

My condolences to all affected by this tragedy.

[TonyK]

VERY educational and still, VERY sad.

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 11/13/2022 at 10:05 PM, RSchnell said:

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out in regards to future airshow performances. With ever rising insurance costs, fuel, parts availability I think it's going to see a number of warbirds parked...

Reno has been having much diminished warbird turnouts over the past few years too.

Hard to believe you could buy a fully functional WW II surplus fighter after the war for about the cost of a 10-year old Toyota today.

B-17s were sold out of Kingman, Az. for the value of the fuel in their tanks in some cases, then cut up and melted down for scrap on the spot.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO