Possible 1968-70 AMX from Moebius?

[Mike Chernecki]

A friend of my parents owned/raced a red white & blue Super Stock AMX back in 1969. Unfortunately the car burned up in a garage fire years later. Be nice to have a new AMX  kit.

[Robberbaron]

Dave, appreciate you leveling with us on this - most guys in your position would say nothing, and chuckle to themselves as this thread ran on for umpteen pages.

For the record, I'm anxious for news on that '59 Dodge...

Edited November 27, 2015 by Robberbaron

[Bennyg]

That's an very interesting rumor...

I need to check my project list...

Just checked the list; Uhh, sorry, no AMX on the list right now...

Far as I know, the Johan AMX tooling along with two or three others were sent to China last time they were produced, and those tools have vanished.

Dave

Just curious Dave, any new big rigs or trailers on that list? Cheers.

Ben

 

 

[Brett Barrow]

That never even crossed my mind as I was thinking (hoping!) about an all-new kit, but considering Moebius purchased the '59 Rambler tooling, it makes sense. Kind of disappointing in a selfish way (for me), though. 

I don't think Moebius owns the 59 Rambler.  Pretty sure Glencoe has it.  Moebius might be facilitating the production for Model King, and that's how their name has gotten attached.  

[disabled modeler]

A new AMX or Javelin would be most welcome . All I have are the promo style AMX with the engine bottom molded into the chassis but stock opening hood  and a Snap Javelin.

Ken....which snap Javelin do you have..?...been looking for 72-74.

[JTalmage]

I came to this party late.... but I'd love to see a modern 69 AMX... lol 

[Deathgoblin]

the 1/20 scale AMX from AMT is actually really nice.  It builds up well and is very detailed.  

[Mark]

Ken....which snap Javelin do you have..?...been looking for 72-74.

All of the snap Javelin/AMX kits were '74s.  Those were done in the mid/late Seventies after the last updates of the glue kit which used many of the same parts.

I won't say all of them were the same, but every one of those snap kits I have seen was molded in dark green, and had Hurst mag wheels.

[disabled modeler]

All of the snap Javelin/AMX kits were '74s.  Those were done in the mid/late Seventies after the last updates of the glue kit which used many of the same parts.

I won't say all of them were the same, but every one of those snap kits I have seen was molded in dark green, and had Hurst mag wheels.

id like to get a hold of some 74 snaps and other Johan snap kits for my collection...I use to have a blue 74 promo but it met its fate during on of our tornadoes here.

[BIGTRUCK]

Ken....which snap Javelin do you have..?...been looking for 72-74.

Hi Mark, this one

[SteveG]

That's an very interesting rumor...

I need to check my project list...

Just checked the list; Uhh, sorry, no AMX on the list right now...

Far as I know, the Johan AMX tooling along with two or three others were sent to China last time they were produced, and those tools have vanished.

Dave

Dave is correct, all those tools apparently fell into a black hole somewhere in China when Testors obtained them for the HSO series.  That would include the Pro-street AMX, 69 Rambler, 71 Cuda, 71 Comet and 70 Olds 442.

Now get ready to be really confused,  Lindberg obtained the rights to all of Testors Plastic kits around the time they announced the Dodge Charger Police car kits. (one of many delays on that project) Those rights passed to Round 2 when they purchased Lindberg.  So in theory if they were ever found they could be packaged as AMT kits.  IIRC, the AMX and the Olds were already released once as AMT Funny car kits.   

So if Dave ever did decide to do an AMC kit he would probably have to start from scratch ...... which is probably not a bad idea.

-Steve

 

 

[Luc Janssens]

It's kinda surprising that the tooling ended up in China, especially since Jo-Han used a somewhat unique mold base, so unless the Chinese made something of their own to make it all work, that too made the voyage to the orient.

[Joe Handley]

Yeah Casey, I'd rather see those years Javelins too over the AMX's much as I like them. 1968-69 I'd prefer over the '70 because as you mentioned, they would have the never done correctly trunion front suspension setup as well as the engine. However, '60's Mustangs front suspension IMO would make a reasonable facsimile if one wanted to build a detailed Javelin/AMX for now.

I'm kinda curious, if some company wanted to do both a Javelin and an AMX, how much could they share between the two kits?  Seems like the drivetrain, suspension, separate front end pieces, some of the interior and rolling stock could be shared between kits, then do the body, floor, specific interior, and driveshaft specific to the two separate models.

[Sport Suburban]

My guess is only 30% of the tool could be reused from 68-70 Javelin to AMX. The parts that would stay the same are all engine parts, radiator, all the separate front suspension parts, and all the separate rear suspension parts. The exhaust, driveshaft, and chassis plate would have to be different. The only parts of the interior that would stay the same is the dash, steering wheel, front bucket seats, console if offered and windshield. The main tub would be different as the AMX has no back seat and rear window is different. The only body parts that would interchange would be the bumpers. But if the front grill is molded to the front bumper it would be different. Hoods are different. Depending on how the taillights are molded they would be different also because of an emblem. Wheels would be the same but why not offer different wheels while you are at it. This does not account for year differences. 68 AMX vs 68 Javelin and 70 AMX vs 70 Javelin. If you go 68 AMX to 70 Javelin than everything body and interior will be different.

 

[Joe Handley]

How would that compare to the Mobius Hudsons then, with the exception of wheelbase?  They have different bodies, chrome and interior bits? Same with the MPC/AMT GMT800 trucks, having the 88-89 vs 90-95  grills, long bed vs short bed vs Sportside bed, small block vs big block, then the USA-1 monster truck version.  There's also the Revell '32 Fords with dozens of potential build variations over the product line.

[MrObsessive]

The only body parts that would interchange would be the bumpers. But if the front grill is molded to the front bumper it would be different. Hoods are different. Depending on how the taillights are molded they would be different also because of an emblem. Wheels would be the same but why not offer different wheels while you are at it. This does not account for year differences. 68 AMX vs 68 Javelin and 70 AMX vs 70 Javelin. If you go 68 AMX to 70 Javelin than everything body and interior will be different.

 

There's a bit more on the body sharing between Javelins and AMX's. 1968-69 the cars are the same pretty much from the doors forward save for the hood and grille. I know this because my '69 AMX was hit on the street once in front of my house and the door got dented. 

The dent couldn't be pounded out, so I ended up taking the door off a '68 Javelin, and it was a perfect fit. From the doors rearward is where a lot of stuff changes. Shorter "doglegs" (the section behind the door to the rear wheels), different quarters, roof C pillars, side windows (including the doors), and of course a shorter floor, driveshaft, exhaust.

In 1970, things were the same again between the two models, but changes were made to the '70's front fenders and hood, rear quarters (side marker lights), so those changes among others would be unique to '70. It's the reason the 1970 AMX is the most sought after among the three years. Only about 4100 or so were made that year, and then you have the changes that were unique to that year only.

I'd love to see Moebius tackle any or all of these years of the Javelin/AMX---------time will tell if they do. 

[Sport Suburban]

Yes you are correct on the bodies but on the model kit. Would you mold the doors and fenders separate from the body. Or build the body mold in such a way as to have a mold line right down the side of the quarter. Then what about the emblems? I prefer molded on emblems as opposed to decals. The 68 Javelins have emblems on the fenders and 68 AMX does not.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Sport Suburban

[disabled modeler]

Hi Mark, this one

Ken....that is one I have been looking for....PM me if you would consider trading it for something...

[MrObsessive]

Yes you are correct on the bodies but on the model kit. Would you mold the doors and fenders separate from the body. Or build the body mold in such a way as to have a mold line right down the side of the quarter. Then what about the emblems? I prefer molded on emblems as opposed to decals. The 68 Javelins have emblems on the fenders and 68 AMX does not.

That's a tough one to figure out. I could see Moebius maybe sharing tooling between the two, but then of course there's the extra cost of making the changes that distinguishes one year from the next. A mold line separating the major changes between the bodies might work. I would hope that the mold line wouldn't be severe enough to interfere with body contours when it comes time to get it ready for paint.

As far as interchangeability on plastic kits in 1/25------I'm about 100% sure that the doors off a Johan '69 Javelin would fit those for the AMX of the same year, if one wanted to go super-detail like I'm fixin' to do some time next year with an AMX build.

Separate doors and fenders won't do on new model kits today in the smaller scales. I could deal with that, but the majority of builders out there would not. As far as the emblems-------who knows, Moebius could go fancy and offer PE for those!

 

[Joe Handley]

Yes you are correct on the bodies but on the model kit. Would you mold the doors and fenders separate from the body. Or build the body mold in such a way as to have a mold line right down the side of the quarter. Then what about the emblems? I prefer molded on emblems as opposed to decals. The 68 Javelins have emblems on the fenders and 68 AMX does not.

Maybe design the molds so that the shared parts are in one mold, then have the model specific stuff  in a second and third mold that can be pulled and put into use for which ever is being made at that time.

[Luc Janssens]

Maybe design the molds so that the shared parts are in one mold, then have the model specific stuff  in a second and third mold that can be pulled and put into use for which ever is being made at that time.

The cars share soo much that in the virtual design phase, lots of components even with slight differences can be drawn at the same time and parts breakdown that maximizes common components, still taking into account easy of assembly and painting (form follows function)

Then when the 3D files of common and all siblings is done, it's only a matter of tool lay-out to get the most bang for your (invested) buck/

Maybe we should put this on FB and try to crowd fund it

 

Ps. the following is something a few friends and I wrote down on the matter a little over a decade ago....in 2004.

Proposal 13) 1970 AMC AMX, by Luc Janssens, with help from Terry Laferriere & Mark

 

1) what subject would you kit, and why?
1970 AMC AMX, with Go Package
Why well, it’s a neat little muscle car and muscle cars sell, mostly due to the exposure they get, through the media.

 

2) Set your target audience, decide on skill level, parts breakdown and overall design.
skill level two, I’m targeting for the Novice builder, Muscle car fans, age 30 and up.
- Chassis: floor pan with molded-in rear wheel well,  front frame, and fuel tank.
- Drive-train: 390 Ram Air engine with automatic, broken down in the same manner as the Amt ’71 Charger,  and the same goes for the full rear axle assembly, with traction bars, front suspension broken down in the same manor as the 1/24 scale Monogram ’66 Mustang, but with separate spindles, and front disk brakes.
- Interior: the optional full leather interior in Snap-fit platform style, with separate side panels (door rear, quarter & kick panel), console, steering wheel, column, dash with open gauges (like Revell’s SSR) two part seats,
- Body: with molded-in engine bay inner fenders and separate firewall, with very crisp window surrounds (ala ‘60’s Jo-Han promos), but no lettering or emblems, and designed without heavy molded in components that can cause sink marks, separate front and rear clip ( with enough inner overlapping so that there is an actual glue-ing surface) , separate bumpers, none chromed grille, with separate chrome headlamp buckets, chromed inner running lights?!, clear head lamps and tail lamp unit, also separate molded in color front turning signals (amber) and very fine side markers lights (red & amber, like Tamiya does) the location on the body would be marked with very tiny L shaped ridges (on the front fenders there will be a molded-in ’69 style side marker, which will be covered with the latter model unit), separate wind shield,  backlite, and side windows also for the front doors (these parts should almost snap fit into place, without oversize locating pins.
The hood, would have a separately chrome molded air intake, and to end with separate chromed rocker panel moldings.
- Other: Heavy duty cooling package, radiator fits in separate front radiator wall that connects to the molded-in inner wheel wells of the engine bay, different color C-striping on the decal sheet.
 
3) Do you want to include optional parts? name them, and why?
- Drive train upgrades: non ram style air cleaner set up
- Body add-on’s:  none
- Interior options: none
-  Wheels & tires:  2 styles; aftermarket set up contemporary factory approved Dealer installed American Torque Thrusts, & modern wide and bigger rim footwear, to appeal both the young as those who remember the car when new.
- Decals: different engine call outs, so one make more variations possible, C-striping in different colors.
- Other: possible self adhesive metal transfers, if cost is within budget, otherwise the emblems will be provided in the form of decals

 

4) Are there alternative versions possible from that tool?, and if so, what parts can be used for both versions?
a) Alternative version 1: '69 AMX
- Chassis: complete carry-over from the ’70 kit
- Drive-train: complete carry-over from the ’70 kit, but now without the ram air. (yes I know the front suspension is a little different but who will notice, flame suit on ;^)
- Interior: everything new except the floor panel
- Body: different rocker panel moldings, front and rear clips (end panels), different bumpers (chromed and un-chromed), grille (chromed this time), clear turn signals, tail lamps, and hood.
- Other: self adhesive metal transfers, if cost is within budget, otherwise decals for all body markings to make it a ’69 model (aftermarket will come to the rescue with photo-etch for those who prefer that kinda extra bit of realness)

 

5) How do you want the packaging?
- Box art: a Muscle car means business so no photo of a parked car, but a red one in an action scene, like outracing a train (with all the disclaimers on the box that we do not endorse such behavior on public roads)
- Info on the box: photo of build model on the side flaps, but on the bottom print detailed photos of some of the features of the real deal.
- Box vs. parts layout:  layout of the parts designed that they fit it the smallest box available, without endangering the contents from being squashed (shipping air is expensive and takes away value-able shelf space too.
- Packaging of the parts: glass, chrome, colored clear parts, packed separately in poly bags, and do the white plastic parts, decals covered with a protective paper.

 

6) The bean counters went all over your little project and it seems the kit you're proposing slightly exceeds the budget, luckily you are in the planning stadium, so what do you loose, and why?

This question is addressed in the choice of Decals or self adhesive metal transfers, as the means to create all the different body scripts and markings.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Luc Janssens
aditional comments and old proposal

[Sport Suburban]

These proposals are very insightful and some solutions I had not thought of before. I would love photo etch emblems.

Also on the 70 Javelin I would like to see the Mark Donahue package. Add some group 19 parts like the cross ram intake, headers and side pipes! I'm actually building a Mark Donahue street car from a resin copy of the Johan kit right now!

 

[lordairgtar]

On the real Javelins, the cars after 71 all share the same doors and windsheilds of the 68-70 models. You can actually interchange the front fenders...they will bolt up. I seen a 69 with humped fenders cruising around town.

[Casey]

Dave is correct, all those tools apparently fell into a black hole somewhere in China when Testors obtained them for the HSO series.  That would include the Pro-street AMX, 69 Rambler, 71 Cuda, 71 Comet and 70 Olds 442.

The Testors Hobby Shop Only reissues don't appear to have any dates on the packaging nor instruction sheets, but according to a few eBay listings were released in 1997 and 1998. The later Testors boxed (well, at least the Comet Pro Street kit with the dragon decals) reissue was marked "Made in U.S.A." on the outside of the box as well as a 1999 date. Is it possible these ex-JO-HAN molds are at (or near) the molding facility in Kalkaska, MI where a few of the semi-recent Lindberg kits (or at least the 2014 throwback box-reissued LRW) were molded? I want to say the 2014-reissue of the 1/20 MPC HI-Jacker Ford Van was molded in the U.S., too, and presumably at the same location, but not sure if that's accurate. 

Was 1999 the last time any of the four ex-JO-HAN kits were reissued?

Edited November 29, 2015 by Casey

[Rob Hall]

The Testors Hobby Shop Only reissues don't appear to have any dates on the packaging nor instruction sheets, but according to a few eBay listings were released in 1997 and 1998. The later Testors boxed (well, at least the Comet Pro Street kit with the dragon decals) reissue was marked "Made in U.S.A." on the outside of the box as well as a 1999 date. Is it possible these ex-JO-HAN molds are at (or near) the molding facility in Kalkaska, MI where a few of the semi-recent Lindberg kits (or at least the 2014 throwback box-reissued LRW) were molded? I want to say the 2014-reissue of the 1/20 MPC HI-Jacker Ford Van was molded in the U.S., too, and presumably at the same location, but not sure if that's accurate. 

Was 1999 the last time any of the four ex-JO-HAN kits were reissued?

That sounds right...I remember getting them from hobby shops around that time.