Cloning with improvements program

[Luc Janssens]

 

Hi all,

While considered by many as the gold standard, promo derived annuals not always came without faults and this due to many factors like there are, last minute changes by OEM’s, time and cost restrains (prior year and ragtop interiors for H/T's, wrong drivetrain etc..)

So to help manufacturers like for instance Round-2 (who happen to have a large enough back-catalog of highly desired subject matter, of which many of us are dying to see back again, hopefully cloned with improvements), I’m wondering and asking you, in this big vat of knowledge, called the Model Cars Magazine Forum, to put that knowledge to good use, to improve future products to the benefit of us all automotive modelers.

So what I’d like this tread to be filled with, is not only the subject matter which you’d like to see returned back from the dead, but if there was,  what was wrong with the original one, what must be changed to make it (more) accurate, thus pointing out in detail, specific weak points where the model differs from the OEM, but also tooling design boo boo’s which maybe caused sinkmarks (which compromised detail once you’d tried to fill them) or assembly steps which were odd.

The purpose of it all, so that the creative people like Round2’s Kats have a "one pager" of advance knowledge to what it will take to bring a certain kit back to life.

 

Also, a side note maybe, I’ve read comments on the current “clone program” that it’s considered a step back in detail, low parts count chassis and drivetrain lay-out, well...IMHO once a kit exists in virtual reality, it by no means is a dead end, meaning further down the road it can be enhanced with improvements and ad-on's to meet possible future market demand.

Like I’ve said before, tooling is only a vehicle and the real value now, is in the 3D files, tooling, if necessary, can be recreated at any time from it, and if it is modular in set up, more can be added along the way, thus depending on configuration, can eject many variants from a specific vehicle platform

.

 

Thanks all in advance for your input and contribution to this fantastic hobby.

 

Cheers

Luc

Edited January 22, 2023 by Luc Janssens

[stitchdup]

While not a specific kit, I'd like to see more curbsides brought back but with seperate hoods. There are plenty of kit and aftermarket sources for engines and other underhood parts but opening the hood can very quickly spoil a model if something slips. It seemed to be a popular feature on the first amt nova wagons and saves the tooling costs for an engine

[espo]

2 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

 

Hi all,

While considered by many as the gold standard, promo derived annuals not always came without faults and this due to many factors like there are, last minute changes by OEM’s, time and cost restrains (prior year and ragtop interiors for H/T's, wrong drivetrain etc..)

So to help manufacturers like for instance Round-2 (who happen to have a large enough back-catalog of highly desired subject matter, of which many of us are dying to see back again, hopefully cloned with improvements), I’m wondering and asking you, in this big vat of knowledge, called the Model Cars Magazine Forum, to put that knowledge to good use, to improve future products to the benefit of us all automotive modelers.

So what I’d like this tread to be filled with, is not only the subject matter which you’d like to see returned back from the dead, but if there was,  what was wrong with the original one, what must be changed to make it (more) accurate, thus pointing out in detail, specific weak points where the model differs from the OEM, but also tooling design boo boo’s which maybe caused sinkmarks (which compromised detail once you’d tried to fill them) or assembly steps which were odd.

The purpose of it all, so that the creative people like Round2’s Kats have a "one pager" of advance knowledge to what it will take to bring a certain kit back to life.

 

Also, a side note maybe, I’ve read comments on the current “clone program” that it’s considered a step back in detail, low parts count chassis and drivetrain lay-out, well...IMHO once a kit exists in virtual reality, it by no means is a dead end, meaning further down the road it can be enhanced with improvements and ad-on's to meet possible future market demand.

Like I’ve said before, tooling is only a vehicle and the real value now, is in the 3D files, tooling, if necessary, can be recreated at any time from it, and if it is modular in set up, more can be added along the way, thus depending on configuration, can eject many variants from a specific vehicle platform

.

 

Thanks all in advance for your input and contribution to this fantastic hobby.

 

Cheers

Luc

I agree with your thought, but there may be a problem. Amagine if Round 2 was to post that they were looking for input for a specific model. They would be inundated with information both valid and not so much. Round 2 or whoever could somehow discreetly get input from reliable sources without alerting every "modeling expert" in the world that may work.   

[Luc Janssens]

26 minutes ago, espo said:

I agree with your thought, but there may be a problem. Amagine if Round 2 was to post that they were looking for input for a specific model. They would be inundated with information both valid and not so much. Round 2 or whoever could somehow discreetly get input from reliable sources without alerting every "modeling expert" in the world that may work.   

This isn't coming from Round2 so they will have the luxury, to check out whatever is posted here, and pick up info they feel is needed or could be for an upcoming or project still under discussion, no more no less.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Luc Janssens
clarity

[ChrisBcritter]

OK, how about doing like what they did with the '65 Mustang, and reverse engineer a stock '66 Barracuda (which has been the Hemi Under Glass for ages)? Out of left field, but with some of the same tooling, a corrected '66 Valiant promo/Craftsman Plus kit (with the roofline and the big crease in the trunk lid fixed).

[1972coronet]

One of my biggest 'gripes' - and has been for decades - is either the lack of or poorly executed brake master cylinders. Oftentimes, a 1966 & earlier brake master is present, having never been updated from the kits' earlier origins (e.g., MPC 1966 Charger). 
I believe that this could be remedied when modernising older tooling (i.e., the battery, washer fluid reservoir, etc., etc., are already receiving upgrades/redesigns, so why not add a brake master to that runner ?).

Another 'complaint' is incorrect transmission-to-differential (e.g., MPC 1971-1972 Road Runner, et al.). Either create a Dana 60, or a Torqueflite; options of both would be ideal (i.e., 4-speed and auto options).
Related to the aforementioned: interior console and/or pedals don't match transmission (e.g., MPC 1971-1976 Duster-Demon-Dart Sport). 

I also recognise that certain older kits of , say, Chevelle and Camaro have the alternator on the incorrect side of the engine. AFIK, the alternator was swapped to the right side of the engines for 1968 or 1969. Another 'easy' fix on restored/retooled releases.

Thanks to one and all for your attention.

[Tcoat]

I can pretend that an AT is a MT, I don't care if the wheels are proper for the year or even make and overall I can live with most "errors".

But...

On the off chance that anybody from the manufacturers and especially Round 2 read this what I would like to see is some sort of consistency in the quality of the rereleases. I understand they are working with old and sometimes worn molds but I don't enjoy paying full market price for a kit ('69 Corvair) that has so much flash and massive mold lines because of bad alignment that I may as well have carved it out of a solid block of styrene. Then you open the next one ('64 Galaxie) and fine a beautiful work of casting that doesn't even see a sanding stick. Then the next is a mix of horrid Aurora like blobs for parts and some super fine ones. I am reaching the point where Round 2 will soon be dead to me unless I simply must have that one kit. Want full price spend some time to clean up these old molds and give us full quality on a regular basis.

 

Oh and side mirrors would be nice with every kit! Only about 50% seem to have them even though they are a highly visible part of most cars.

[jaftygas]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:21 PM, Tcoat said:

I can pretend that an AT is a MT, I don't care if the wheels are proper for the year or even make and overall I can live with most "errors".

But...

On the off chance that anybody from the manufacturers and especially Round 2 read this what I would like to see is some sort of consistency in the quality of the rereleases. I understand they are working with old and sometimes worn molds but I don't enjoy paying full market price for a kit ('69 Corvair) that has so much flash and massive mold lines because of bad alignment that I may as well have carved it out of a solid block of styrene. Then you open the next one ('64 Galaxie) and fine a beautiful work of casting that doesn't even see a sanding stick. Then the next is a mix of horrid Aurora like blobs for parts and some super fine ones. I am reaching the point where Round 2 will soon be dead to me unless I simply must have that one kit. Want full price spend some time to clean up these old molds and give us full quality on a regular basis.

 

Oh and side mirrors would be nice with every kit! Only about 50% seem to have them even though they are a highly visible part of most cars.

Amen Brother!!!!

[CapSat 6]

Ok- I think this is what you want…

Clone program subject: MPC ‘72-‘74 Barracudas

Fixes required- body: 

- tail panel / license plate mount, improve appearance to look more stock

-headlight buckets - tunnel them deeper, shape more like stock

- front lower grille turn signal indicators- add back

- bumpers- create ‘72, ‘73 and ‘74 style bumpers

- separate hood from body, as the last  release was promo style with the hood molded in

Fixes required- chassis: 

- reshape inner front fenders and firewall, add more accurate details, create more accurate radiator and surround, tool new battery and washer reservoir

- retool for separate exhaust pipes

- expand the inner wheel wells so that they meet the body better

Optional fixes: 

- change the interior to platform style, add detail to the inner door panels

- tool up a stock 340/ 360 engine, based on the engine from the AMT ‘71 Duster, with a brand new Carter Thermoquad carb, optional 6-BBl intake, and headers

- tool up a new dual scoop ‘Cuda hood

- tool up a nice stock console mounted cassette player, which has never been done in any other Mopar kit

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by CapSat 6

[Daddyfink]

Maybe some of you would like to start a Go Fund Me for tool updates and restorations, since this all does cost money.

 

 

[Tabbysdaddy]

18 minutes ago, Daddyfink said:

Maybe some of you would like to start a Go Fund Me for tool updates and restorations, since this all does cost money.

 

 

This is a discussion about spending other people's money. Uh oh, this might be politics.

[CapSat 6]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:02 PM, Daddyfink said:

Maybe some of you would like to start a Go Fund Me for tool updates and restorations, since this all does cost money.

 

 

That doesn’t sound fun.

[sfhess]

What?  It's not a quick scan, a few mouse clicks and out pops a new tool?

[Bugatti Fan]

A quick scan, few mouse clicks and out pops a new tool.    Any engineer reading this knows it is nowhere as easy as that.  If only it was!

The mention of tooling modification or replacement is not politics, it is economics. Nothing wrong with this thread as it is a bit of a wish list hypothetical discussion.

The reality is most manufacturers will just keep churning out rereleases from old tooling. The cost of modifying old tooling would simply not justify the return they would get in sales.

Atlantis though seems to be buying up old tooling and bringing subjects back from the dead so to speak.

We all have our favourites, but many might simply not be viable as newly tooled kits these days. Many of those old favourites were tooled when the cars were current and sold back then. Also the buyer of kits has changed dramatically, being much more demanding about finesse and accuracy. Manufacturers would only now look at retooling kits of cars like Revell did to replace their old E Type Jaguar as it is a viable classic to make new tools for. That is the economic reality today.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Bugatti Fan

[SteveG]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:02 PM, Daddyfink said:

Maybe some of you would like to start a Go Fund Me for tool updates and restorations, since this all does cost money.

 

 

Actually, a crowdfunding source like Kickstarter might actually be a good way to get some to some of the more obscure subject matter back that I would otherwise have trouble make a case for reissuing.  For example, the rare '64 Plymouth Valiant Signet Coupe.  The idea has been kicked around some.  

-Steve

[CapSat 6]

5 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

A quick scan, few mouse clicks and out pops a new tool.    Any engineer reading this knows it is nowhere as easy as that.  If only it was!

The mention of tooling modification or replacement is not politics, it is economics. Nothing wrong with this thread as it is a bit of a wish list hypothetical discussion.

The reality is most manufacturers will just keep churning out rereleases from old tooling. The cost of modifying old tooling would simply not justify the return they would get in sales.

We all have our favourites, but many might simply not be viable as newly tooled kits these days. Many of those old favourites were tooled when the cars were current and sold back then. Also the buyer of kits has changed dramatically, being much more demanding about finesse and accuracy. Manufacturers would only now look at retooling kits of cars like Revell did to replace their old E Type Jaguar as it is a viable classic to make new tools for. That is the economic reality today.

Round 2’s cloning program wasn’t any kind of reality just a few years ago, but many of us who are industry outsiders have been suggesting such things for many years. 
 
We are nowhere near “click the mouse”, but the current program is definitely a step in the right direction. 

Despite the noise, I’m sure Round 2 and the other manufacturers don’t really mind free product suggestions. It would be sort of foolish if it did bother them. 

[SteveG]

19 minutes ago, CapSat 6 said:

Round 2’s cloning program wasn’t any kind of reality just a few years ago, but many of us who are industry outsiders have been suggesting such things for many years. 
 
We are nowhere near “click the mouse”, but the current program is definitely a step in the right direction. 

Despite the noise, I’m sure Round 2 and the other manufacturers don’t really mind free product suggestions. It would be sort of foolish if it did bother them. 

I would go as far as to say that I encourage discussion on product suggestions.  Keep them coming, constructive criticism welcome too. 

-Steve 

[ranma]

Anyone else think that Revell should take a page from Round2 with their re-engenering  of a few kit's such as the '77 Monte Carlo? The Monte Carlo would be a good car kit to  redo 1.remove the hood from the body, 2. complete redo of the chassis (get rid of the funky adjustable  junk), 3 stock wheels/tires along with custom wheel's/tires.. add a fire wall and radiator as well....

[Can-Con]

17 minutes ago, ranma said:

Anyone else think that Revell should take a page from Round2 with their re-engenering  of a few kit's such as the '77 Monte Carlo? The Monte Carlo would be a good car kit to  redo 1.remove the hood from the body, 2. complete redo of the chassis (get rid of the funky adjustable  junk), 3 stock wheels/tires along with custom wheel's/tires.. add a fire wall and radiator as well....

, , , and fix the roof. There's just something wrong with the side windows but I just can't put my finger on it. Looks like the door windows dip down too far at the back and the opera windows look too narrow maybe???

[bobthehobbyguy]

Before this thread spins off into other manufacturers the op was targeting this to be a round2 wish list. A separate thread for Revell needs to be started.