Buyer beware

[StevenGuthmiller]

5 hours ago, slusher said:

Some make mistakes and are always going to need advice. Let’s always help who needs no matter if it’s the same mistake we have been so familiar with..

Of course, but for a good number of us, the only real guidance is to suggest to use a different product.

That's where the problem arises.

When we offer that suggestion, we're often ostracized as being rigid and uncompromising.

I absolutely want to help people with their paint issues, but the best way that I feel that I can do that is by suggesting that they move on to what I believe to be much better materials.

 

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

3 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Experimenting is fine. I do it all the time.

But reinventing the wheel is just not necessary.

If you want to "experiment", your time would be more wisely spent developing techniques to get the best possible results from proven products that accomplished modelers have been using successfully...like Duplicolor primers.

 

There's no way that I could put it any better than this.

It's very difficult to arrive at a reliable painting regimen, (It took me decades to come up with one that worked for me consistently) and if you're continually going all over the map, it makes it that much more burdensome to arrive at.

 

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I think the push to use big-box DIY paint is in the pursuit of "saving money", believing there's some magic perfect primer hiding in plain sight, that will cost a fraction of what made-for-hobby-use (Tamiya etc.) or real-cars (Duplicolor etc.) do.

I've always been of the opinion that price had to be the sole factor in the use of these paints.

That and the availability factor.

I can't imagine any other reason.

 

I have to say, and I understand that some may not agree, but how much you spend, runs completely parallel with how you approach the hobby.

By that I mean, I find it somewhat humorous that the people who usually complain the loudest about kit and material prices are those that feel the need to force out finished models like they're working on an assembly line.

If you slow down, take your time, and try to the best of your ability to put out something of higher value, cost suddenly becomes a moot point.

If you feel the need to pump them out like little rabbits, then of course, money begins to come into play.

Concentrate on producing a finished product that is to the highest standard that you can achieve, and take the clock out of the equation, and you'll save.

It always drove me up the wall seeing individuals tear through a kit in a week and half and then upon completion, immediately begin whining about the cost of the next kit! 

 

 

 

Steve

[bobthehobbyguy]

Experimentation is good when the results are repeatable. However in this case there are way too many variables. The kit plastics characteristics change frequently, the paint formulas change, temperature and humidity fluctuate,  

As said it makes more sense to develop a system with proven materials.  And even then things can go wrong. Why make painting more difficult than it needs to be.

[StevenGuthmiller]

28 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Experimentation is good when the results are repeatable. However in this case there are way too many variables. The kit plastics characteristics change frequently, the paint formulas change, temperature and humidity fluctuate,  

As said it makes more sense to develop a system with proven materials.  And even then things can go wrong. Why make painting more difficult than it needs to be.

Here, here.

 

 

 

Steve

[Bugatti Fan]

I think that eventually we all just settle for what works best for us by having been there and got the Tee shirt so to speak.

Newcomers reading this thread might get a bit confused by the on going Rustoleum debate that keeps on simmering.

My advice to them would be to use model dedicated products to start off with. You don't want your expensive kit dissolving like a vampire doused in holy water by using any make of inappropriate spray can product.

Edited August 15, 2024 by Bugatti Fan

[JollySipper]

Guys, I'm guilty of using the Brand in question, but I'll pretty much only use it for things like suspension bits and sometimes an interior...... Never would I even try to paint a body with it! Here's some interior pieces that were painted with the Ultra Matte black. It did okay, but I knew going in about the recoat window and that there needed to be primer down first....... The 'bonding' agent in this paint must be pretty aggressive for it to claim to bond to pretty much anything, thus the need for a primer......

 

[slusher]

4 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

There's no way that I could put it any better than this.

It's very difficult to arrive at a reliable painting regimen, (It took me decades to come up with one that worked for me consistently) and if you're continually going all over the map, it makes it that much more burdensome to arrive w

 

Steve

You and Bill always have have my respect  but Testors charge almost the price of Tamiya and there  some are looking for outlets. But each tell the same story about Rustoleum later there some new comes along.

[bluestringer]

I've used Rustoleum primer in the past and didn't have problems with it. I've had more problems with the Rustoleum colors, except the Ultra Matte Black and Flat Black which seem to work well. But looking at the primer in question, I would not even try using it because of the fan spray nozzle, that is just too much paint coming out for a small kit body. I tried a couple of Duplicolor primers and had more problems with them than the Rustoleum. But after trying Mr. Hobby Surfacer 1000 primer it is all I use now. Get it at HL, kinda pricey for a small can but can do several bodies with it. I use Tamiya Acrylic colors and really like them.

[av405]

11 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I've always been of the opinion that price had to be the sole factor in the use of these paints.

That and the availability factor.

I can't imagine any other reason.

I think that in addition to this, there are certain high-profile youtube modelers who use Rustoleum as their go-to. With the absence of great quality photos and close ups, some of those models look decent from afar. I see a lot of people on FB groups say something to the effect of "Well if _____ produces great finishes on his videos with that paint, so can I!" I don't hate on people who use Rustoleum, but I think a lot of people that do either don't understand that they won't get as quality of a finish as they think they will or they don't care about getting a quality finish (which is fine too). It just bothers me that so many people seem to have unreasonable expectations.

Edited August 16, 2024 by av405

[StevenGuthmiller]

5 hours ago, av405 said:

I think that in addition to this, there are certain high-profile youtube modelers who use Rustoleum as their go-to. With the absence of great quality photos and close ups, some of those models look decent from afar. I see a lot of people on FB groups say something to the effect of "Well if _____ produces great finishes on his videos with that paint, so can I!" I don't hate on people who use Rustoleum, but I think a lot of people that do either don't understand that they won't get as quality of a finish as they think they will or they don't care about getting a quality finish (which is fine too). It just bothers me that so many people seem to have unreasonable expectations.

Agreed.

That goes for quite a few other products as well.

Sometimes I believe that people put way too much stock in what the "Youtubers" say.

Just because someone happens to be good at making videos, doesn't mean that they're particularly good modelers.

I've seen some pretty cheesy stuff coming from some Youtubers.

 

 

 

Steve

[mikemodeler]

Says right on the can....up to 4 times faster than other spray primers and 10 inch wide spray. That alone should tell you it is not for plastic models.

 

15 ounce can of Rustoleum primer from Wal Mart $16

5 ounce can of Mr Surfacer primer from Hobby Lobby $10

One is designed for model cars and works well and the other doesn't. Don't make it hard on yourself.

[peteski]

1 hour ago, mikemodeler said:

Says right on the can....up to 4 times faster than other spray primers and 10 inch wide spray. That alone should tell you it is not for plastic models.

 

15 ounce can of Rustoleum primer from Wal Mart $16

5 ounce can of Mr Surfacer primer from Hobby Lobby $10

One is designed for model cars and works well and the other doesn't. Don't make it hard on yourself.

But, but, but, you get so much more paint in the Rustoleum can!  You know, many modelers can be very "frugal" (for various reasons). To me modeling is a hobby, so spending extra dollars to get the right supplies or tools makes perfect sense.  I want enjoyment, not frustration.

I'm sure someone will say that they are on limited budget. Well then, unfortunately do what you must, but then don't complain if the results are less than optimal.

[Mike 1017]

1 hour ago, mikemodeler said:

Says right on the can....up to 4 times faster than other spray primers and 10 inch wide spray. That alone should tell you it is not for plastic models.

 

15 ounce can of Rustoleum primer from Wal Mart $16

5 ounce can of Mr Surfacer primer from Hobby Lobby $10

One is designed for model cars and works well and the other doesn't. Don't make it hard on yourself.

The 10-inch spray pattern is OK. It is the volume of paint that shoots out like a firehose is the main problem. It is the claim it dries 4 times faster and it bonds that caught my eye. My intent was to warn fellow community members to stay away from this stuff.

I have spoken

Mike

[Spruslayer]

Guess ill throw my 25 cents in the frey

I havent used a model paint that dident do a good job,have i used all of them out there,no

looking at my paint rack there are 15 differant brands and i would guess there was 4 or 5 more that i have thrown away because i used it all or what was left went bad sitting on the shelf.

The first thing i do with a brand i have not used is paint a peice of scrap to find out how thinner to use for airbrushing

it should be noted that i only use water based paint in the AB

It has come down to either Vallejo or Tamiya as my go to for model paints

i also use craft paint with sucess,Apple Barrel, folk art ect.

Guess ill have to put my clown suit on because i use Rust-oleum primers and clear coats

why it works for me is i put the victim in the pace peace keeper and spray no closer that 12 to 15 inches away.Allowing the clears to dry several days and sanding to 3000 grit between coats produces a level reflective gloss that works for me

May not be an contest award winner  but i like it

[bluestringer]

3 hours ago, mikemodeler said:

Says right on the can....up to 4 times faster than other spray primers and 10 inch wide spray. That alone should tell you it is not for plastic models.

 

15 ounce can of Rustoleum primer from Wal Mart $16

5 ounce can of Mr Surfacer primer from Hobby Lobby $10

One is designed for model cars and works well and the other doesn't. Don't make it hard on yourself.

16 dollars? Dang what walmart is that. Get it at my local walmart for 8 dollars.

[mikemodeler]

14 minutes ago, bluestringer said:

16 dollars? Dang what walmart is that. Get it at my local walmart for 8 dollars.

That was the price from a Google search. I try to limit my Wal Mart trips to once or twice a year.

[av405]

56 minutes ago, Spruslayer said:

Guess ill have to put my clown suit on because i use Rust-oleum primers and clear coats

 

I don't think anybody here is going to call you a clown for it. You have a method, you have realistic expectations about what you're going to get, and you have an after paint process. I've seen a few modelers do good work with Rustoleum, and I think most of them understand it's limits and nuances. A lot of the complaints with Rustoleum here aren't necessarily with the paint itself, but people's unrealistic expectations from it and the sole desire to be cheap. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by av405

[bobthehobbyguy]

1 hour ago, Mike 1017 said:

The 10-inch spray pattern is OK. It is the volume of paint that shoots out like a firehose is the main problem. It is the claim it dries 4 times faster and it bonds that caught my eye. My intent was to warn fellow community members to stay away from this stuff.

I have spoken

Mike

In addition any paint claiming it's primer and paint usually means the solvent is really hot and will destroy styrene.

Second if the goal is to save money it's worth gett8ng an airbrush. A pasche single act8on airbrush and compressor package is around $200. With the cost of rattle cans you can spend that amountf easily. It provides a lot of flexibility in paints you can use.

[Ace-Garageguy]

21 minutes ago, av405 said:

I don't think anybody here is going to call you a clown for it. You have a method, you have realistic expectations about what you're going to get, and you have an after paint process. I've seen a few modelers do good work with Rustoleum, and I think most of them understand it's limits and nuances. A lot of the complaints with Rustoleum here aren't necessarily with the paint itself, but people's unrealistic expectations from it and the sole desire to be cheap. 

Exactly.

[mikemodeler]

2 hours ago, peteski said:

But, but, but, you get so much more paint in the Rustoleum can!  You know, many modelers can be very "frugal" (for various reasons). To me modeling is a hobby, so spending extra dollars to get the right supplies or tools makes perfect sense.  I want enjoyment, not frustration.

I'm sure someone will say that they are on limited budget. Well then, unfortunately do what you must, but then don't complain if the results are less than optimal.

Yep, there are some who will argue with you that THEIR math makes it a bargain, no matter the outcome. That little can of Mr Surfacer, if applied correctly will likely cover several vehicles if there isn't a lot of work after it is primed. That Rustoleum will be so thick that panel lines will disappear and the final paint job will be as thick as that of an 1:1 car.

[Bainford]

3 hours ago, av405 said:

I don't think anybody here is going to call you a clown for it. You have a method, you have realistic expectations about what you're going to get, and you have an after paint process. I've seen a few modelers do good work with Rustoleum, and I think most of them understand it's limits and nuances. A lot of the complaints with Rustoleum here aren't necessarily with the paint itself, but people's unrealistic expectations from it and the sole desire to be cheap. 

Well said! I think this thread may have the Rustoleum users feeling a bit beat up, but that's not the point. Your post sums it up nicely. 

[Bugatti Fan]

If anyone can get Rustoleum or any other DIY paint to work well on their models, then more power to their elbow !

But like many other spray paint aerosols one has to bear in mind that they are primarily aimed at the DIY market. 

Some may work ok on models. Others definitely not.

[mrm]

There is so much BS on this two pages, that my head is spinning and I don't know where to begin. I am sorry to be the one saying it, but someone had to. And it is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. The "anti-Rustoleum sect" is just as bad and ridiculous as "the Rustoleum sect". 

On 8/15/2024 at 12:24 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

 

When we offer that suggestion, we're often ostracized as being rigid and uncompromising.

I absolutely want to help people with their paint issues, but the best way that I feel that I can do that is by suggesting that they move on to what I believe to be much better materials.

 

 

 

Steve

Your comments on here are like the definition of being rigid  and uncompromising. What YOU believe and what works for YOU, does not mean that it is the same for others. 

****

And I 'm sorry, but we should set some kind of boundaries what are we talking about. Are we talking about using Rustoleum product in general or are we talking about using their spray cans for shooting paint straight from the can onto he body? Because these are two entirely different things. Some Testors spray cans will drown your model, bubble up on it, drip and leave puddles with fish eyes. Wait...let me correct that.MOST TESTORS CANS will do that.  And some will argue that it is all about "user error". Fine. But they are hooby paint in a can made for painting models right? So why does it take a week to cure and Tamiya cures in a day? Which brings us to the elephant in the room. What is hobby paint? And what is paint in general. Because House of Color is NOT made for plastic models. Nail Polish is NOT made for plastic models. Automotive (duhh) hot lacquers are NOT made for plastic models. Are you ready for it? MCW, Splash, Gravity, Scale finishes, SMS etc.,etc. are NOT made for plastic models. All of them are companies where someone had a large quantity of factory code paint mixed in an auto paint shop and then brakes it into smaller bottles with their label. Inside is the exact same hot automotive lacquer you will get if you walk into a PPG shop and order paint for your real car. And as we know, all these paints WILL give us trouble depending on how are we using them and what we combine them with. Have you stripped chrome with oven cleaner? That's not made for plastic models. Have you botched up a paint-job and soak it in break fluid? That's definitely not made for plastic models! Bondo anyone? That's not made for plastic models. Future floor polish? Yeah, definitely not for scale models. But we all have used these products and many still do. And there is no problem with it and everyone has accepted it. But actual paint that sticks to plastic? Oh, no! How dare anyone? That's not made for plastic models!!!

"I've always been of the opinion that price had to be the sole factor in the use of these paints. That and the availability factor."

Wrong! Besides, why does the reason matter? They may want to paint with watercolor fingerpaint. Why the crusade against these people? 

 

On 8/15/2024 at 5:15 PM, Bugatti Fan said:

I think that eventually we all just settle for what works best for us by having been there and got the Tee shirt so to speak.

But how do you find what works for you and earn the T-shirt if you don't try and experiment?

My advice to them would be to use model dedicated products to start off with. You don't want your expensive kit dissolving like a vampire doused in holy water by using any make of inappropriate spray can product.

To start with - yes. But Rustoleum will not dissolve your model. You know what will? All these specialties authentic automotive colors from the model aftermarket world WILL, without proper preparation. And with proper preparation, Rustoleum will work just fine as well. 

 

16 hours ago, av405 said:

I think that in addition to this, there are certain high-profile youtube modelers who use Rustoleum as their go-to. With the absence of great quality photos and close ups, some of those models look decent from afar. I see a lot of people on FB groups say something to the effect of "Well if _____ produces great finishes on his videos with that paint, so can I!" I don't hate on people who use Rustoleum, but I think a lot of people that do either don't understand that they won't get as quality of a finish as they think they will or they don't care about getting a quality finish (which is fine too). It just bothers me that so many people seem to have unreasonable expectations.

Some of the building shown on Youtube by "high-profile modelers" is absolutely atrocious. From the globs of superglue to the lack of barely any glue to spraying completely assembled and painted interiors with gloss from a spray can. I think people are way too into what's on the net and it is harmful in many ways. Having said that, the comment for the quality of finish is absolutely groundless. I am not a Rustoleum fanboy, but I am not opposed to it being used in the hobby. Every time I have used it I have achieved great results. Not my favorite paint to use, but totally usable IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. 

   In this picture there are four models. The green B400 is done with Tamiya paint, the blue Phantom Vicky is done with Tamiya (dark blue) and PPG automotive (brighter blue on bottom)paints. The Mint Tudor Deuce is done in two different rustoleum greens and the fenders are Tamiya black. The blue fender poking out at the right is a Nissan automotive tri-coat. And all of them have pretty much the same quality finish. Actually, the green B400, which is using 100% modeling paint from Tamiya, is just a step behind from the other three in the finish department. And I did not use the green Rustoleum colors because I wanted to experiment, nor to save money or anything like that. No. I saw the real car in magazines and online, went to the Good Guys show, saw it in person and loved the color combo. When I was in Wall Mart for something completely different, I walked by the paint section and saw these two greens and thought: "wow, these are the colors of the car I loved. Let's make it work." And I did. And do you know why it has a great finish? Because it was prepped underneath just like for automotive paint and it was topped off with 2K clear. Which by the way will equalize the finish no matter the paint underneath, which is the point of the photo.

 

8 hours ago, Mike 1017 said:

The 10-inch spray pattern is OK. It is the volume of paint that shoots out like a firehose is the main problem. It is the claim it dries 4 times faster and it bonds that caught my eye. My intent was to warn fellow community members to stay away from this stuff.

I have spoken

Mike

I don't understand some of the logic here on the forum. Or the lack thereof.

  So, let's decant paint from Testors and Tamiya spray cans that are designed for models, but shoot models straight from the can when it is not meant for models? How does that even make sense? Or lets spend 3 weeks prepping a body by sanding it up to 3000 grid before we spray special primer on it, then sand it down again to 6000 grid, just so we can spray more primer and then basically polish it to 12000 grid and let it cure for a week before we spray an undercoat for the undercoat of the color we are going to use, sanding and curing in between, but then b!1ch and moan about Rustoleum melting our model because we shot it over plain plastic or didn't prep it properly? 

5 hours ago, mikemodeler said:

Yep, there are some who will argue with you that THEIR math makes it a bargain, no matter the outcome.  That Rustoleum will be so thick that panel lines will disappear and the final paint job will be as thick as that of an 1:1 car.

Wrong! A can of Rustoleum is cheaper than a tiny can of Tamiya paint. Someone else earlier mentioned that you can't use the Rustoleum paint after the first use, which is also completely false. People need to understand how paint works. The Rustoleum is meant to paint a garden chair in your breezy back yard successfully with minimal effort. The MrSurfacer (I personally believe Tamiya is better and I don't understand why HL switched it) is meant to spray plastic models in a confined environment. Naturally they are charged with different pressure, have different nozzles and they contents are not thinned the same. But if decanted and properly reduced they will work the same as far as their thickness goes. It is the same about paint attacking plastic. It is not the paint that is doing it, but the solvent that it is thinned with. You can have the exact same paint reduced with different thinners and it would interact differently with plastic and other paint. 

 

2 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

If anyone can get Rustoleum or any other DIY paint to work well on their models, then more power to their elbow !

But like many other spray paint aerosols one has to bear in mind that they are primarily aimed at the DIY market. 

Some may work ok on models. Others definitely not.

So here are four models. The first is automotive Jaguar dark green, followed by a pink one which my 13 year old painted straight from the Rustoleum can to make a mothersday gift for his mom, then another Rustoleum color airbrushed on and then a ModelMaster metallic. My kid said that he wants a pink hot rod for his mom. He's not really into models that much, mainly because of the choices offered by kit manufacturers. So Walmart across the street it is. Can of pink for $6, which I just clear coated for him. Zero issues and absolutely nothing to do with money. Now the model next to it, was built basically because I saw the color in Walmart and I thought it would look really cool on a hot rod. That model would have never been built if it wasn't for the Rustoleum spray can catching my attention on a shelf. Again, nothing to do with cost, size or anything like that. And there are plenty of people who have seen my models at shows and I don't believe anyone can call my paint jobs below average. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by mrm

[av405]

35 minutes ago, mrm said:

Some of the building shown on Youtube by "high-profile modelers" is absolutely atrocious. From the globs of superglue to the lack of barely any glue to spraying completely assembled and painted interiors with gloss from a spray can. I think people are way too into what's on the net and it is harmful in many ways. Having said that, the comment for the quality of finish is absolutely groundless. I am not a Rustoleum fanboy, but I am not opposed to it being used in the hobby. Every time I have used it I have achieved great results. Not my favorite paint to use, but totally usable IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. 

I agree 100% with your first point. But on the second point, you misconstrued my comment about quality of finish. I never said you couldn't achieve a quality finish with Rustoleum (I've seen a very few throughout the years). My point is that your average modeler, especially a new one, is less likely to achieve a quality finish with Rustoleum vs. other paints. I say that from my own first hand experience and years of reading posts about Rustoleum use online. Much of this is driven by the very youtube modelers you and I agree on. As I mentioned in a follow up post on this very thread, my irk with Rustoleum has more to do with the lack of realistic expectations regarding the paint that seems to exist and the desire to use it mainly because it is cheaper in price than the use of the paint itself. If you can achieve a great finish and/or you are happy with Rustoleum paint, quality finish or not, I don't judge that. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by av405