Well it’s finally announced.😦

[espo]

3 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

In 2015, total costs for battery replacement on a 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid was between $8-10k CDN. The company I worked for had several in the rental fleet. When I left there last fall, the total replacement cost was down to $4k CDN.

So prices are coming down as these get more common, and the aftermarket catches up. 

Good to know that the cost of batteries is improving. I still wonder if an owner of a 5year old vehicle is going to want to spend $4k for a new battery? 

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

... When I left there last fall, the total replacement cost was down to $4k CDN.

So prices are coming down as these get more common, and the aftermarket catches up. 

And a very large percentage of used vehicle owners balk at $1000 to '$1500 for timing belt replacements, which accounts for the exceedingly high percentage of rubber-toothed-belt equipped vehicles being junked when the belt fails.

So used vehicle owners are going to have no problem replacing battery packs, even if they get down to $2000? 

Yeah, right.

[iamsuperdan]

6 minutes ago, espo said:

Good to know that the cost of batteries is improving. I still wonder if an owner of a 5year old vehicle is going to want to spend $4k for a new battery? 

 

3 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

And a very large percentage of used vehicle owners balk at $1000 to '$1500 for timing belt replacements, which accounts for the exceedingly high percentage of rubber-toothed-belt equipped vehicles being junked when the belt fails.

So used vehicle owners are going to have no problem replacing battery packs, even if they get down to $2000? 

Yeah, right.

 

Costs are coming down for sure, but no one will ever be happy with a $2k repair bill, whether its for a battery pack or a timing belt replacement. It's just the cost of owning a vehicle. Some will pay it, some will ditch the vehicle. Just like what happens now. There are 5 year old vehicles requiring major engine or transmission work that can run upwards of $4k, so it's not much different.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

53 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

Costs are coming down for sure, but no one will ever be happy with a $2k repair bill, whether its for a battery pack or a timing belt replacement. It's just the cost of owning a vehicle. Some will pay it, some will ditch the vehicle. Just like what happens now. There are 5 year old vehicles requiring major engine or transmission work that can run upwards of $4k, so it's not much different.

Actually, it's VERY different. Not all ICE cars are going to require crippling repair costs as they age, particularly if they're intelligently designed (timing chains or gears, for instance), and if they're well cared for.

But EVERY electric vehicle will experience significant battery degradation over time. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

(NOTE: Toothed belts were relatively cheap and easy to replace when the engines were designed, to a point at least, with servicing in mind; cars like Pintos and Fiats and early Hondas and belted Toyotas were a snap to do. But cars like Neons and PT Cruisers and many many more elevated timing-belt replacement to near-nightmare status, requiring loads of disassembly just to get to the damm things).

Edited August 17, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

When you have ignorant fools who are firmly convinced of their own moral superiority running things (and who mistakenly believe they understand "technology" because they all rely heavily on "smart" phones for everything), you get what you get. But they will not have much effect on me.

This has always been one of my biggest issues.

A bunch of overly ambitious dopes with political science degrees and no real world experience "AT ALL", who's main ambition is a life long career and the desire to exercise power, gathering together in Washington and deciding everything for us, from how our health care system should function, to what world conflicts we should be involved in.

Call me nuts, but I've always been a firm believer in the concept that if you need a problem solved, you go to the one with the experience to solve it.

Not relying on some pin headed, self important, empty suit with a gargantuan ego and a colossal power complex, who thinks that they have all of the answers when they probably couldn't manage to construct a box of macaroni and cheese without messing it up.

We would all be in much better shape if we could somehow manage to put the "REAL" smart people in charge, rather than the ones who just think that they're smarter than everyone else.

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

Somebody said electrification won't have much effect on heavy vehicles and farm equipment. I beg to differ. A contact from a real engineering forum forwarded this to me. I can't personally vouch for its veracity, but it rings true. Quoting now:

"A close friend farms over 10,000 acres of corn in the mid-west. The property is spread out over 3 counties. His operation is a "partnership farm" with John Deere. They use the larger farm operations as demonstration projects for promotion and development of new equipment.

He recently received a phone call from his John Deere representative, and they want the farm to go to electric tractors and combines in 2023. He currently has 5 diesel combines that cost $900,000 each that are traded in every 3 years. Also, over 10 really BIG tractors.

JD wants him to go all electric soon.

He said: "Ok, I have some questions. How do I charge these combines when they are 3 counties away from the shop in the middle of a cornfield, in the middle of nowhere?" "How do I run them 24 hours a day for 10 or 12 days straight when the harvest is ready, and the weather is coming in?" "How do I get a 50,000+ lb. combine that takes up the width of an entire road back to the shop 20 miles away when the battery goes dead?"

There was dead silence on the other end of the phone.

When the corn is ready to harvest, it has to have the proper sugar and moisture content. If it is too wet, it has to be put in giant dryers that burn natural or propane gas, and lots of it. Harvest time is critical because if it degrades in sugar content or quality, it can drop the value of his crop by half a million dollars or more. It is analyzed at time of sale. It is standard procedure to run these machines 10 to 12 days straight, 24 hours a day at peak harvest time. When they need fuel, a tanker truck delivers it, and the machines keep going.

John Deere's only answer is "we're working on it." They are being pushed by people who don't really know much of anything to force these electric machines on the American farmer. These people are out of control. They are messing with the production of food crops that feed people and livestock... all in the name of their "green dream."

Look for the cost of your box of cornflakes to triple in the next 24 months...”

END OF QUOTE


 

[stitchdup]

unfortunately, if the person is smart they stay as far away from power as they can. the smart people have been telling us for more than 40 years what the problems were but were shot down. look how people viewed science during the pandemic, its no wonder smart people stay away from power if they can. much as oil companies are the root of the problem, they are also probably best placed to do whats needed to promote hydrogen. They have the basic infrastructure in place already that can be modified for hydrogen storage and the sites are already suitable for windmills to make the hydrogen either on site or nearby. Onsite would probably be easier and better for the enviroment as the sites are already industrial. The safety systems needed are nearly the same but they will need to redesign tanks as leakage could be a problem since they lose so much methane already at fracking sites. The way I see it electric was chosen, not for the envoromental benefits but because there is mush more profit to be made from electric vehicles than hydrogen cells. all those minerals are making someone somewhere a lot of money and that kind of money owns the story. but again its the old story, all people really hear when you say hydrogen is hindenburg or h-bomb, because that its 2 most famous things and a lot of people just cant see past that line.

[BlackSheep214]

5 hours ago, NOBLNG said:

I think the push to go electric is good in principle, but it should not be a forced 100% deal. There are a lot of drivers who are not car enthusiasts who will gladly drive EVs. There are a lot of city and suburban commuters who never drive long distances who would make good EV owners. If only those drivers switched to EVs, it could make a difference (ignoring the manufacturing and dirty power plant factors). There are a lot of 2 or more vehicle households that could make use of one EV if they felt the need to do their part? There are also a lot of uses and situations where an EV is simply not optimal or feasible. It is simply ridiculous at this point in time to expect farmers, truckers and construction equipment to go electric.

We have a lithium and tantalum mine here in Manitoba, but unfortunately it is owned by China!🤨

Sure, sure... let me how those EV work in sub degree temps in Canadian winters. You’re screwed, pal.... ROFLMAO! Next thing you know, they’ll have electric car charger stations that will charge you waaaaaaaay more than gasoline prices. Good luck with affording that. Even if you have your personal charging station in your own home and garage, I’d hate to see what your electric bill will be. LOLOLOL!!!!!

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, stitchdup said:

The way I see it electric was chosen, not for the envoromental benefits but because there is mush more profit to be made from electric vehicles than hydrogen cells.

And because it all lines up with "some people's" utopian vision of society.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[iamsuperdan]

10 minutes ago, BlackSheep214 said:

Sure, sure... let me how those EV work in sub degree temps in Canadian winters. You’re screwed, pal.... ROFLMAO! Next thing you know, they’ll have electric car charger stations that will charge you waaaaaaaay more than gasoline prices. Good luck with affording that. Even if you have your personal charging station in your own home and garage, I’d hate to see what your electric bill will be. LOLOLOL!!!!!

 

EVs can work just fine in the winter, provided people learn how to properly operate their vehicles, and provided the cars were designed properly in the first place. 

This past winter, there were a lot of news stories about Canadian Tesla owners complaining about no heat in their cars. It's a known problem with the heat pump, and Tesla had to issue a recall. And I'll bet there are still more issues this coming winter.

On the flip side, Ford have what is essentially a pre-heater on the Mach-E and Lightning. There is a setting one needs to turn on so that when plugged in and charging, the vehicle will start circulating and heating the coolant. This warms the battery and gets the interior to a comfortable temperature. Do it while plugged in, and the power to pre-heat the car comes from the charger, not your batteries. But many people don't have this properly explained to them, so they get in their car in the middle of winter and complain about loss of range and no heat. 

Does Tesla have any sort of pre-heat? I have no idea. Either they don't, or their drivers don't know how to operate the vehicles.

 

As for costs, the Flo network is one of the bigger ones here in Canada. Over 15,000 chargers in Canada with at least Level 2 charging capabilities. Charging costs vary from station to station. Some charge 21 or 25 cents per minute. Some are a flat $5/hr, and I've seen some at $21 or 25/hr. Many are actually free to use. The DC fast chargers can charge a car from  to almost 100% in about an hour. If you install a home charger, and charge once a week, or even twice a week, will your power bill go up each month? Of course. Will it still be less than your monthly fuel bill? Most likely. Chargers are under $1500 CDN right now. I don't think the costs are that bad right now.

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Somebody said electrification won't have much effect on heavy vehicles and farm equipment. I beg to differ. A contact from a real engineering forum forwarded this to me. I can't personally vouch for its veracity, but it rings true. Quoting now:

"A close friend farms over 10,000 acres of corn in the mid-west. The property is spread out over 3 counties. His operation is a "partnership farm" with John Deere. They use the larger farm operations as demonstration projects for promotion and development of new equipment.

He recently received a phone call from his John Deere representative, and they want the farm to go to electric tractors and combines in 2023. He currently has 5 diesel combines that cost $900,000 each that are traded in every 3 years. Also, over 10 really BIG tractors.

JD wants him to go all electric soon.

He said: "Ok, I have some questions. How do I charge these combines when they are 3 counties away from the shop in the middle of a cornfield, in the middle of nowhere?" "How do I run them 24 hours a day for 10 or 12 days straight when the harvest is ready, and the weather is coming in?" "How do I get a 50,000+ lb. combine that takes up the width of an entire road back to the shop 20 miles away when the battery goes dead?"

There was dead silence on the other end of the phone.

When the corn is ready to harvest, it has to have the proper sugar and moisture content. If it is too wet, it has to be put in giant dryers that burn natural or propane gas, and lots of it. Harvest time is critical because if it degrades in sugar content or quality, it can drop the value of his crop by half a million dollars or more. It is analyzed at time of sale. It is standard procedure to run these machines 10 to 12 days straight, 24 hours a day at peak harvest time. When they need fuel, a tanker truck delivers it, and the machines keep going.

John Deere's only answer is "we're working on it." They are being pushed by people who don't really know much of anything to force these electric machines on the American farmer. These people are out of control. They are messing with the production of food crops that feed people and livestock... all in the name of their "green dream."

Look for the cost of your box of cornflakes to triple in the next 24 months...”

END OF QUOTE


 

 

 

And why?

Because there's nobody with dirt under their finger nails making the decisions.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[vincen47]

The very valid points being made about agriculture equipment made me jump to another subject where the EV support infrastructure (or lack there of) could prevent its practical use: Law enforcement vehicles.

Getting back to the original post, I imagine this means we won’t see a Dodge-based police pursuit vehicle when they go EV. Even though charging stations could be installed in police garages, stations, etc, the mere thought that they’d be dependent on the electrical grid would, I believe, prevent any municipality from going electric. It will be a very long time until battery tech provides the range and infrastructure, and more so, the infrastructure reliability needed for emergency operations.

Don’t get me wrong, EVs have a place, it’s just not everywhere.

Edited August 17, 2022 by vincen47

[NYLIBUD]

Wow i think i really touched a nerve with some people in regards to EVs.Im just upset that Dodge is going to stop making the Challenger,and Charger.Sheesh…But seriously,there’s pros and cons with EVs,as we all know.I personally wouldn’t buy one if someone put a gun to my head.But that’s just my opinion.🙄🤷‍♂️

Edited August 17, 2022 by NYLIBUD

[espo]

I'll stir the pot really good. Just my opinion but the best EV is the one hauling golf clubs around. Beyond that I just don't care.  

[stitchdup]

2 minutes ago, espo said:

I'll stir the pot really good. Just my opinion but the best EV is the one hauling golf clubs around. Beyond that I just don't care.  

I dunno, some of the trains are pretty ggod too

[NOBLNG]

Another thing to consider is the price of electricity. It certainly won’t go down in price with demand increasing. We are lucky in Mb. to have publicly owned hydro (even though it is poorly run and our taxes basically subsidize the rates) which keeps our rates low. Ontario recently went private and hydro costs soared.

[NYLIBUD]

23 minutes ago, espo said:

I'll stir the pot really good. Just my opinion but the best EV is the one hauling golf clubs around. Beyond that I just don't care.  

Exactly.

[NOBLNG]

1 hour ago, espo said:

I'll stir the pot really good. Just my opinion but the best EV is the one hauling golf clubs around. Beyond that I just don't care.  

And I’ve worn those batteries right down zig zagging my way around 18 holes,🤪

[Rocking Rodney Rat]

You guys crack me up.... -RRR

[Tabbysdaddy]

All my cars I got cheap because they needed work. I fixed them myself for a small fraction of what a mechanic would charge. I can't do that when the cost to repair is all batteries. 

[BlackSheep214]

Imagine a world of EV automobiles - a sure fire way to experience world wide brown outs. The Green backers and politicians has no say so what can be banned. Who says the ordinary middle class can afford all these electric automobiles when the starting price is around 50k and up? I certainly can’t afford it. I wouldn’t even trust buying used EV knowing I’ll get stuck with replacing the batteries that cost more than the car or worth. Screw that.

In all honesty, I don’t see how these automakers can push the EV agenda knowing the average Joe can’t afford them. That will be their biggest downfall and go broke when nobody is buying electric vehicles come 2035.

I even read EV are vulnerable while being charged by hackers. 

Don't believe me? 

https://www.autoserviceworld.com/ev-chargers-vulnerable-to-hacking/

 

If they simply push for hybrid vehicles, I’m all for it. 

 

While were here talking about electric vehicles, how about those electric lawnmowers and snowblowers? Both are crappy outdoor equipments. Had an electric lawnmower and hated it. Took a sledgehammer to it after one summer season and bought a gas powered lawnmower. Electric snowblowers wouldn’t be able to handle throwing heavy wet snow in wintertime. All pure POS....

[BlackSheep214]

3 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

 

 

And why?

Because there's nobody with dirt under their finger nails making the decisions.

 

 

 

 

Steve

Exactly. Too many yuppies who never got down and get dirty as a kid.

[BlackSheep214]

4 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

 

EVs can work just fine in the winter, provided people learn how to properly operate their vehicles, and provided the cars were designed properly in the first place. 

This past winter, there were a lot of news stories about Canadian Tesla owners complaining about no heat in their cars. It's a known problem with the heat pump, and Tesla had to issue a recall. And I'll bet there are still more issues this coming winter.

On the flip side, Ford have what is essentially a pre-heater on the Mach-E and Lightning. There is a setting one needs to turn on so that when plugged in and charging, the vehicle will start circulating and heating the coolant. This warms the battery and gets the interior to a comfortable temperature. Do it while plugged in, and the power to pre-heat the car comes from the charger, not your batteries. But many people don't have this properly explained to them, so they get in their car in the middle of winter and complain about loss of range and no heat. 

Does Tesla have any sort of pre-heat? I have no idea. Either they don't, or their drivers don't know how to operate the vehicles.

 

As for costs, the Flo network is one of the bigger ones here in Canada. Over 15,000 chargers in Canada with at least Level 2 charging capabilities. Charging costs vary from station to station. Some charge 21 or 25 cents per minute. Some are a flat $5/hr, and I've seen some at $21 or 25/hr. Many are actually free to use. The DC fast chargers can charge a car from  to almost 100% in about an hour. If you install a home charger, and charge once a week, or even twice a week, will your power bill go up each month? Of course. Will it still be less than your monthly fuel bill? Most likely. Chargers are under $1500 CDN right now. I don't think the costs are that bad right now.

 

You keep telling yourself that. Time to stop drinking the Kool-Aid and take off those rose colored glasses. Reality bites just remember that. Don’t say we didn’t warn you.....😜🤪

[StevenGuthmiller]

I don’t have any problem with EVs if that’s your bag, but I can tell you without equivocation, that whenever the government starts mandating something, you can bet your buttocks there’s gonna be a train wreck.

 

 

 

Steve

[iamsuperdan]

1 hour ago, BlackSheep214 said:

While were here talking about electric vehicles, how about those electric lawnmowers and snowblowers? Both are crappy outdoor equipments. Had an electric lawnmower and hated it. Took a sledgehammer to it after one summer season and bought a gas powered lawnmower. Electric snowblowers wouldn’t be able to handle throwing heavy wet snow in wintertime. All pure POS....

lolz

We've had a Stihl battery powered EV lawnmower, leafblower, and weed wacker for a couple of years now. Handles our lawn and yard cleanup just fine. Leafblower is great in the winter for getting rid of snow from the cars or sidewalk. And when it gets deep, I can shovel our driveway faster than our neighbour can snowblow his driveway. No more having to deal with jerry cans and having to head to the gas station for a $5 fill. No dealing with oil changes on a lawnmower. No mixing mixing oil and gas for a weed wacker or dealing with extension cords. 

 

1 hour ago, BlackSheep214 said:

You keep telling yourself that. Time to stop drinking the Kool-Aid and take off those rose colored glasses. Reality bites just remember that. Don’t say we didn’t warn you.....😜🤪

Keep telling myself what? That EV works for some people? That it works better when used correctly? That it doesn't work for some people? That the tech will keep improving? That a change is coming and like it or not we're going to have to deal with it? Of course I'll keep saying that, because it's all true.

And at no point have I said that I'll be getting an EV for myself. Because it won't work for me and my lifestyle. Yet.

 

5 hours ago, vincen47 said:

The very valid points being made about agriculture equipment made me jump to another subject where the EV support infrastructure (or lack there of) could prevent its practical use: Law enforcement vehicles.

Getting back to the original post, I imagine this means we won’t see a Dodge-based police pursuit vehicle when they go EV. Even though charging stations could be installed in police garages, stations, etc, the mere thought that they’d be dependent on the electrical grid would, I believe, prevent any municipality from going electric. It will be a very long time until battery tech provides the range and infrastructure, and more so, the infrastructure reliability needed for emergency operations.

Don’t get me wrong, EVs have a place, it’s just not everywhere.

This is one I definitely don't get. GM and Ford have both announced EV police/emergency vehicles. GM have the EV Blazer SSV coming, and Ford are doing both a Mach-E SSV and a Lightning SSV. Makes no sense to me.