"correct" scale for new releases

[Motor City]

There has been a lively discussion regarding the merits of 1/24 vs. 1/25 scale regarding the Jaguar release.  I grew up with 1/32 and 1//25 scale.  I had a few 1/24 scale such as the Monogram '78 El Camino, and '88 Regal and Reatta by an unknown manufacturer.  I didn't like having different scales since I would have preferred displaying all of the models together, but eventually realized it's like books.  In an ideal world, books would all be the same size so they would all fit on any bookcase shelf.  My solution is to display all of the 1/24 scale together, and all of the 1/25 together.  Even if you only collected 1/25 scale, look at the difference in size between a Cadillac and a Vega or a pickup truck.  You probably wouldn't display all of them together because it would look odd, but would put the trucks together, the big cars together, and the small cars together.   

I collect promos as well as kits.  The early promos by National Products are about 1/28 scale.  The 1948 Pontiac is that scale, but Banthrico's 1949 Pontiac is 1/25.  AMT's 1951 and 1952 Pontiac are about 1/26 scale.  What to do?  Display all of them on the same shelf.  The U.S. model car promos didn't finally settle on 1/25 scale until 1953.  PMC's 1950-52 Plymouth was 1/20 scale, and was the last holdout until Hubley's 1/24 Ford models of 1960-62. 

 

[64Comet404]

That doesn't even count many '1:24' Monogram kits from the late 1970s and '80s, where the models scale out closer to 1:22/1:23.

Let's face it, every manufacturer does some 'cheating' when designing their kits. Even Tamiya has admitted to playing with proportions to make them more pleasing to the designer's eye. 

As long as my 1:24 and 1:25 kits aren't too far out of proportion with each other, I am happy.

[Pete J.]

The reason for the two scales really isn't about aesthetics.  It is about what is  convenient for the designers.  1:24 scale is an architects scale.  It works very well in standard fractions of an inch, such as half's, quarters, eights and sixteenths of an inch.    1:25 is and engineers scale and works best in tenths or in the case of models thousandths of an inch which most machinists are familiar with.  Every mill and lathe I have ever seen is calibrated in either metric or thousandths of an inch.  I have never seen on calibrate in English fractions.1:25 scale is almost a metric scale. The same is true for 1:20 scale.  

[Tom Geiger]

And don’t forget that when Lindberg came back on the scene they started out tooling new releases in 1/20 scale.  They thought they’d pioneer this as the new scale and sent cases of kits to shows to use as door prizes. We had a tough time even giving these away at NNL East!

Eventually they gave up and gave us some very nice kits in 1/25.

[89AKurt]

18 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

The reason for the two scales really isn't about aesthetics.  It is about what is  convenient for the designers.  1:24 scale is an architects scale.  It works very well in standard fractions of an inch, such as half's, quarters, eights and sixteenths of an inch.    1:25 is and engineers scale and works best in tenths or in the case of models thousandths of an inch which most machinists are familiar with.  Every mill and lathe I have ever seen is calibrated in either metric or thousandths of an inch.  I have never seen on calibrate in English fractions.1:25 scale is almost a metric scale. The same is true for 1:20 scale.  

I was wondering about that!  I'm an architectural designer (affordable architect), am used to the architect scale, but also use the engineer scale for Site Plans.  What you said makes total sense.  I also use a metric scale when I scratch build, much easier to read and calculate divisions.

I've been seeing aftermarket engines advertised as 1/24-1/25 scale.  In some cases you can get away with it.  But I learned the hard way that stuffing a 1/24 427c.i. into a 1/25 Corvette is near impossible.

I've built military subjects, so mixing 1/72, 1/48 and 1/35 on one shelf looks silly, but it is like books.   As Steve said, the Lindberg 1/20 is not popular, too bad the GMC Cyclone isn't 1/24(5), that would have been a popular kitbash.

[Luc Janssens]

Personally I always preferred the 1/24th scale of the Monograms, but later I went for subject matter over scale, besides it's not because something is labeled in a certain scale, that it is, case in point some of the AMC kits by Jo-Han.

Build what you like, all the rest is not worth worrying about

Cheers

 

Luc

[stavanzer]

What Pete J says is correct from all I've ever read. 

So, ranting about European this or Oddball that, is really beside the point. Two groups of engineers, separated by time, geography, and the business demands of their respective employers, settled on two slightly different scales. It can be annoying, I'll admit.

But, it was not ever about upsetting customers, for what were originally designed as "essentially disposable" Children's toys. These tools were never really intended, 50-60 years ago to last until the 21st Century.  They have and we're "almost" always happy to have the product they produce. There is no reason that most manufacturers are going to switch to a different scale going forward, when it does not mesh with their back catalog. Revell is the only one who seems to have done so.

Revell, now a mostly European company, is of course going to design new kits in a scale that is sold world wide. They are, after all, a global company serving a large global market. The USA is now a Modeling backwater, as hard as that is to hear. Revell, is happy to sell here. I doubt that US likes and dislikes are a big factor in product development in a German Company run by Bankers. Are US wants/desires a factor in Revell thinking? Of course. But they are not the dominant factor anymore.  This can be seen just by looking over the last 18 months of product and announcements coming from Revell. Many People like the Two Snap Tractor Kits however, note that they are of German Prototypes, not Farmall or John Deere. Sadly, US desires in new kit subjects, are no longer a Major Factor going forward in a now Global Business. China is the Key market now, with Asia, and then Europe.

Our buying and building is driven by Likes/Dislikes and Passions. All Model Companies new kit development is driven by Desire first and Business Case second. And Business Case always wins in an "Era of Low New Kit Tooling budgets", and Shallow Sales Numbers.

[Matt Bacon]

51 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

1:25 scale is almost a metric scale. The same is true for 1:20 scale.  

Although interestingly, never used in metric countries... Apart from Heller having a very brief flirtation with 1/125 airliners and 1/50 aircraft, “metric” scales have never been a thing in Europe or Asia. VEB Plasticart in East Germany did some 1/100 kits, but that was a very closed market. It’s always been 1/72, not 1/75; 1/48, not 1/50, and 1/144 not 1/150 for UK, French, and German kit companies. Ultimately, despite metrication everywhere else in Europe, scales are all 1” = some number of feet...

best,

M.

[the other Mike S.]

2 hours ago, 64Comet404 said:

That doesn't even count many '1:24' Monogram kits from the late 1970s and '80s, where the models scale out closer to 1:22/1:23.

Let's face it, every manufacturer does some 'cheating' when designing their kits. Even Tamiya has admitted to playing with proportions to make them more pleasing to the designer's eye. 

As long as my 1:24 and 1:25 kits aren't too far out of proportion with each other, I am happy.

Those old 1/24th scale Monogram kits were some of the worst lookingnkits of all time except for maybe Palmer.  Those 1/24th scale Monogram,kits would gather dust on the LHS shelves while the 1/25th MPC/AMT kit would there one day, then gone the next.  They were definitely phoning it in and it showed. The 1/25th scale kits by Johan, MPC and AMT were orders of magnitude better in scale fidelity in the basic body proportions.  Of course, that stands to reason since most of those 1/25th scale kits were based on the manufacturer's blueprints (promo/annuals) of those respective years.

Yes, 1/24th is an architect scale so mathematically it's easier to scale down/pantograph down details from the master buck down to the scale needed for the tooling cut.  Unfortunately, most Mongram and Revell 1/24th scale kits during that time did not hold a candle to the much superior proportions of the MPC/AMT/Johan kits at that time.  Revell was typically a little better, but many were still not quite right rwdy for prime time compared to the dead nuts accurate MPC/AMT/Johan kits at the time.

Displaying 1/25th and 1/24th scale together is a task of immense tolerance.  The mathematically close number does not reveal just how weird those two scales appear together when displaying different sized cars/trucks.  Due to that issue, I like to display my 1/25th and 1/24th scale cars separately if I can.

There's no right or wrong scale.  However, if you're going to invest in new tooling of a vintage modeling subject like say a '70 Dodge Charger or a '68, '69 Chevelle, you would probably be much better served (from a ROI perspective) to issue them in 1/25th scale.   

Edited December 6, 2020 by the other Mike S.

[iamsuperdan]

The "correct" scale is whatever a kit manufacturer feels gives them biggest bang for their bucks.

 

Although I have my preference, like most, I just don't care. If I like the subject matter, I'll buy a kit whether it's in 1:24 or 1:25.

 

[Pete J.]

2 hours ago, Matt Bacon said:

Although interestingly, never used in metric countries... Apart from Heller having a very brief flirtation with 1/125 airliners and 1/50 aircraft, “metric” scales have never been a thing in Europe or Asia. VEB Plasticart in East Germany did some 1/100 kits, but that was a very closed market. It’s always been 1/72, not 1/75; 1/48, not 1/50, and 1/144 not 1/150 for UK, French, and German kit companies. Ultimately, despite metrication everywhere else in Europe, scales are all 1” = some number of feet...

best,

M.

Matt I think about it, I was slightly off in my description.  A metric or English scale doesn't really exist.  A scale is the same across both systems.  1:25 just mean 25 somethings = 1 something.  whether it is 1 mm or inch or cm or foot is irrelevant.  Thus a 1:25 scale model would be the same physical length regardless of what base unit you measure it in.  Scale is about size compared to the original. No difference if you measure it in inches and feet or cm and meters.    The only time it would matter is in the physical markings on a rule.  Draftsmen have traditionally used either of three physicals scale rulers. " Architects" which is in fractions of an inch, "Engineers" which is in 10ths of an inch or "metric" which is in 10ths of a Cm.  ?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Pete J.

[Classicgas]

1/25, 1/24, 1/32, I could care less. I build by subject. 

[Richard Bartrop]

I suppose because I started out on Monogram kits, and because I can use an architect's scale to measure things out, my preference is for 1/24, but in practice, 1/25 is close enough, especially since the deviations from the actual scale tend to blur out any differences between the two.

[Motor City]

A model subject being made at all is what really counts for most of us.  I've started getting some 1/43 models for more cars that haven't been done in 1/24 or 1/25. 

[Richard Bartrop]

10 minutes ago, Motor City said:

A model subject being made at all is what really counts for most of us.  I've started getting some 1/43 models for more cars that haven't been done in 1/24 or 1/25. 

You may be on to something.  I've had an idea for a Packard woodie for a while, and I've been looking at ICM's very nice Packard, and thnking maybe I shouldn't wait for a 1/24 version.

[martinfan5]

I happily build both 1/24th and 1/25th ,  I prefer 1/24th scale more and wish it would be come the standard here in the USA( I know it wont and that is perfectly ok too), but I don't let that get in the way of my enjoyment of building 1/25th scale kits.  

I find it funny as a kid/teen, I didnt like 1/24th scale.

 

[peteski]

Pretty much all the Japanese kit manufacturers use 1:24 scale.  To me the scale is irrelevant.  If I like something, I'll build it, regardless of scale. With automotive/bike subjects I have built kits from 1:220 to 1:6 scale.

[RichCostello]

I build American cars. The vast majority of American subjects are 1/25, so that is what I want. I owned a 1:1 69 Super Bee, and would love to build a replica of it, but the only version is 1/24, so I don't build it, because it would look odd with the other muscle cars that I have already built. I'm not an accuracy fanatic, but in the real world, a 69 Super Bee was not bigger than a Charger, GTX, Roadrunner, etc. There are a lot of cars I'd like to have in 1/25(70 Roadrunner/GTX, 69 GTO, 70 Firebird, etc.)but there a lot  more in 1/25 that I do have, so I just have to live with it.

[Pete J.]

9 hours ago, peteski said:

Pretty much all the Japanese kit manufacturers use 1:24 scale.  To me the scale is irrelevant.  If I like something, I'll build it, regardless of scale. With automotive/bike subjects I have built kits from 1:220 to 1:6 scale.

Except F 1 cars which are almost universally either 1:20 or 1:43 scale.  

[peteski]

14 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

Except F 1 cars which are almost universally either 1:20 or 1:43 scale.  

True, but I think that  in the end, this thread really is about the typical 1:24 vs. 1:25 discussion.  The clue is "correct scale". "Correct" according to whom, and why? 

Edited December 7, 2020 by peteski

[Straightliner59]

I would say  that it's about the subject. If I like it, I'll buy it, regardless of the scale. I don't buy much stuff bigger than 1/24-1/25. The old Monogram kits, in spite of all their flaws, are truly among my favorites! I don't worry about how they're displayed, really, either. I like to put my latest stuff on the top shelf of the display case.

[bobthehobbyguy]

I agree its always about the subject matter. Twenty-fourth and Twenty-fifth scales have been around for a long time. Besides those scales there was always the infamous box scale to deal with(cars were scaled to fit a standard box size).

As said correct is a matter of opinion.

[Pete J.]

7 hours ago, peteski said:

True, but I think that  in the end, this thread really is about the typical 1:24 vs. 1:25 discussion.  The clue is "correct scale". "Correct" according to whom, and why? 

Spot on and typical of any discussion of "Art".  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  There is no "correct". Only what you like.  Frankly, I enjoy building.  The scale is only relevant in the level of detail I need to achieve.  Smaller the scale the fewer nuts and bolts I have to add or the higher powered optivisor lens I need to fit!

Edited December 7, 2020 by Pete J.

[Straightliner59]

2 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

 Besides those scales there was always the infamous box scale to deal with(cars were scaled to fit a standard box size).

 

Like a lot of those old Monogram kits that range from about 1/24 all the way to maybe 1/20?

[Pete J.]

37 minutes ago, Straightliner59 said:

Like a lot of those old Monogram kits that range from about 1/24 all the way to maybe 1/20?

That is a quality control issue. Scale means nothing if the manufacture doesn't care.