1/25 AMT 1966 Mustang GT -- Original Annual & Modified Reissue

[niteowl7710]

4 hours ago, BobbyG said:

I hope so. My frustration with Round2 is they seem to be overlooking a lot of possibilities with existing tools to use for multiple versions. That is why, in my opinion, Moebuis has the right formula; they make multiple versions of a given subject or spin off to sister brands. Their 65 Plymouths, Ford pickups and their newest Chevy IIs. You would think Round2 has the resources to do the same. 

This is just my opinion not an attack on anyone. I learned a long time ago that constructive criticism means you care.

The thing is all of those Moebius kits are modern. There's very few things in the Round2 catalog that were made after the 1998 disposition of Ertl to Racing Champions which means CAD data doesn't exist for any of it. It's not a simple matter of "drawing" new parts into the kit and having them perfectly fit the existing kit parts the way Moebius can. 

Prior to the recent scanning of old kits to create modern replicas, the earlier examples - re-stocking the Gremlin, which lead to the new parts not fitting the old kit without modifications, and the "full bumper" 70.5 Camaro which required them to intentionally tool the new parts incorrectly (compared to the 1:1 car) to fit the 90s era body which wasn't geometrically square - show that while the ideas might be "no brainers" the application there of isn't as easy, intuitive or cost effective as it might otherwise be.

[tim boyd]

2 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

The thing is all of those Moebius kits are modern. There's very few things in the Round2 catalog that were made after the 1998 disposition of Ertl to Racing Champions which means CAD data doesn't exist for any of it. It's not a simple matter of "drawing" new parts into the kit and having them perfectly fit the existing kit parts the way Moebius can. 

Prior to the recent scanning of old kits to create modern replicas, the earlier examples - re-stocking the Gremlin, which lead to the new parts not fitting the old kit without modifications, and the "full bumper" 70.5 Camaro which required them to intentionally tool the new parts incorrectly (compared to the 1:1 car) to fit the 90s era body which wasn't geometrically square - show that while the ideas might be "no brainers" the application there of isn't as easy, intuitive or cost effective as it might otherwise be.

What James said.

Also, keep in mind that the few new-tool Round 2 kits, such as the recent 2017/2017 Camaro series, have followed the "multiple versions" preferred scenarios much like Moebius has done.  I would expect that we'll see the same thing with the new Charger sedan tool, as well as another all-new tooling project/subject which has not yet been announced... TB 

[Motor City]

What Round2 could do is take a damaged tool such as the '65 Olds Dynamic 88 and make a new body, interior, glass, grille and bumpers for a '66 Starfire.  If the body was shaped correctly, the roof and glass from the '65 Grand Prix would work.  A '65 Starfire would require a bit more work since the exhaust exits just in front of the rear bumper in the bottom of the quarter panels.  The seat pattern is different, too.

Another example is the damaged '66 Skylark GS.  Tool a new body and interior, grille and other parts to make '66 and '67 GS versions.  

Since the '64 Cutlass convertible led to the '64 442, maybe this will eventually lead to a '65 442.  

The possibilities are there to modify old tooling, but the tooling cost and sales potential of some makes me wonder if the return on investment would be there.  There is good demand for the '65-'66 Mustang 2+2, so that is a good choice.

['70 Grande]

7 hours ago, Motor City said:

The possibilities are there to modify old tooling, but the tooling cost and sales potential of some makes me wonder if the return on investment would be there. 

As much as many of us would like to see the different Oldsmobile's and Buick's you mentioned "come-back-to-life", I am doubtful any of those subjects ever will for the very reasons you also stated.

[ChrisBcritter]

I'd think the Buick Skylark GS, being a muscle car, might stand a good chance as a reissue/recreation if Round2 put as much effort into it as they did with the Nova wagon. Maybe even base the chassis on the Lindberg 442 tooling? 

[Luc Janssens]

Modified releases are more likely if the design of the original tooling lends itself to insert swapping and/or blocking off unwanted sections, without disturbing the flow of plastic into the cavities which are still needed.

In the old days they tried to cramp everything, except the clear and red shots, into one big two part chunk of steel, now I see smaller modular tooling which lends itself to a much more versatile use. 

But anyway, I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to add a new version to the Amt/ertl '71 Charger R/T tool for example, by adding new body side cavities (without the door grille stampings) and if, the main tool in the to be plated section can house it, a new front loop-bumper with separate grille inserts and rear bumper, in the non plated area bucket seats, console, shifter while one of the clear parts tooling can hold the new taillamps, so that Round-2 can release a Super Bee version.

And if the tool can't hold the extra parts, except the body side cavities, group the needed extra parts into a smaller tool that can hold some extra parts which can be used to dress up this kits even more like '70s correct street machine parts!

Another modus operandi could be; tool up everything that is needed to create an all new kit of the '72 Plymouth Roadrunner copying lotsa under-skin parts from the Charger R/T tool and including some of the Super Bee parts in there so they can be separately run with the '71 Charger tool (with the right body side inserts)  and the parts added to this kit, so the builder even has more options.

Just thinking out loud guys!   

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Luc Janssens
clarafication, I hope ;)

[Motor City]

another possibility is to make a '72 Charger Special Edition

[tim boyd]

13 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

Modified releases are more likely if the design of the original tooling lends itself to insert swapping and/or blocking off unwanted sections, without disturbing the flow of plastic into the cavities which are still needed.

In the old days they tried to cramp everything, except the clear and red shots, into one big two part chunk of steel, now I see smaller modular tooling which lends itself to a much more versatile use. 

But anyway, I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to add a new version to the Amt/ertl '71 Charger R/T tool for example, by adding new body side cavities (without the door grille stampings) and if, the main tool in the to be plated section can house it, a new front loop-bumper with separate grille inserts and rear bumper, in the non plated area bucket seats, console, shifter while one of the clear parts tooling can hold the new taillamps, so that Round-2 can release a Super Bee version.

And if the tool can't hold the extra parts, except the body side cavities, group the needed extra parts into a smaller tool that can hold some extra parts which can be used to dress up this kits even more like '70s correct street machine parts!

Another modus operandi could be; tool up everything that is needed to create an all new kit of the '72 Plymouth Roadrunner copying lotsa under-skin parts from the Charger R/T tool and including some of the Super Bee parts in there so they can be separately run with the '71 Charger tool (with the right body side inserts)  and the parts added to this kit, so the builder even has more options.

Just thinking out loud guys!   

 

Luc....you are right on the money with the SuperBee spinoff, done in the manner you describe.  Plus, the split bench seat in the R/T kit, which was never offered on production '71 R/T's, would be factory correct for a SuperBee!  More importantly than that, I'd like to see Round 2 do both of these versions with Rod Shop drag racing livery....they already have (or had) the Rod Shop licensing and the expanded decals sheets they do these days would be great for providing model car builders with a full-on Rod Shop livery treatment.  I've made this exact suggestion - several times in fact - to my contacts at Round 2.  Sounds like they just have other, higher priority (e.g. better financial return) projects to pursue first....TB  

Edited March 12, 2022 by tim boyd

[horsepower]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:45 AM, Casey said:

Saw this complete, original 1/25 AMT 1966 Mustang GT Fastback kit on eBay, so have a look at the (partial, I didn't save every image) contents. Might be useful for comparison when the re-created '66 Mustang Fastback debuts later in 2022 from Round2.

I'd buy it just for the Webers, and valve covers they'd be perfect for a replica of a local Super Modified from the mid to late '60s that the local Ford dealership actually donated a complete from pan to air horns 289 Cobra engine as a sponsorship. Pretty competitive against much bigger engines, one Sprint car even ran a 427 fuel injected Ford power plant.

Edited March 18, 2022 by horsepower

[afx]

1 hour ago, horsepower said:

I'd buy it just for the Webers, and valve covers they'd be perfect for a replica of a local Super Modified from the mid to late '60s that the local Ford dealership actually donated a complete from pan air horns 289Cobra engine as a sponsorship. Pretty competitive against much bigger engines, one Sprint car even ran a 427 fuel injected Ford power plant.

Pretty sure those same parts if not the same complete engine is included in the ubiquitous AMT Shelby Cobra 289.

[afx]

Replicas & Miniatures cast the MPC teardrop hood - just FYI

[mk11]

Some detail pics for those maybe wanting more accurate engine compartment detail than that offered by the stock chassis plate or the '67 chassis.

The trumpeter '64 falcon and the '66-'69 amt falcons offer more accurate looking shock towers

 

Here's the contrast between the panels on the '65/'66 mustang and the '64/'65 falcon/comet...

... clearly showing how Ford sectioned the falcon height to achieve the new mustang styling.

 

 

[Bob Ellis]

When is this 1966 fastback GT supposed to hit the shelves?

[BobbyG]

On 3/12/2022 at 3:51 AM, Luc Janssens said:

Modified releases are more likely if the design of the original tooling lends itself to insert swapping and/or blocking off unwanted sections, without disturbing the flow of plastic into the cavities which are still needed.

In the old days they tried to cramp everything, except the clear and red shots, into one big two part chunk of steel, now I see smaller modular tooling which lends itself to a much more versatile use. 

But anyway, I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to add a new version to the Amt/ertl '71 Charger R/T tool for example, by adding new body side cavities (without the door grille stampings) and if, the main tool in the to be plated section can house it, a new front loop-bumper with separate grille inserts and rear bumper, in the non plated area bucket seats, console, shifter while one of the clear parts tooling can hold the new taillamps, so that Round-2 can release a Super Bee version.

And if the tool can't hold the extra parts, except the body side cavities, group the needed extra parts into a smaller tool that can hold some extra parts which can be used to dress up this kits even more like '70s correct street machine parts!

Another modus operandi could be; tool up everything that is needed to create an all new kit of the '72 Plymouth Roadrunner copying lotsa under-skin parts from the Charger R/T tool and including some of the Super Bee parts in there so they can be separately run with the '71 Charger tool (with the right body side inserts)  and the parts added to this kit, so the builder even has more options.

Just thinking out loud guys!   

 

Luc,

My sentiments exactly, I have been saying this all along. The late nineties era of great Ertl detailed kits lend themselves to countless modified reissues for new subjects just as you stated. However, some argue that the costs to investment in modifying tooling as opposed to straight reissues is less, but if there is a demand for fresh new subjects that were never tooled or are very rare originals, then there is better potential for profits. Or, we just go on living with reissues after reissues which is Round2's happy zone.

I'll say it again, my money is saved for Moebius and their future. They seem to be listening. The upcoming 65 Coronets with two versions out of the gate as with their new Chevy II kits (with probably more versions to come) are a perfect examples. 

It would behoove Round2 to take a survey listing possible modified issues of the Ertl tools for input. That can lend to a marketing road map for their future. In my opinion, Round2 is sitting on a gold mine, adding to your example:  adapt the 68/69 Road Runner/GTX guts for a 68 Coronet R/T. When a very rare original MPC kit is selling on an auction site commanding ridiculous bid prices (most of us wouldn't or couldn't pay $400-$500 or $200 for a glue bomb), that to me is justification for a fresh kit. My generation (I'm pretty sure we remain the majority of the buying group) may be stepping aside for younger people looking for more current subjects, but look at the 1:1 classic car hobby which is surging regardless of age group.

Just saying.

Edited April 16, 2022 by BobbyG

[Luc Janssens]

7 hours ago, BobbyG said:

 

It would behoove Round2 to take a survey listing possible modified issues of the Ertl tools for input. That can lend to a marketing road map for their future. In my opinion, Round2 is sitting on a gold mine, adding to your example:  adapt the 68/69 Road Runner/GTX guts for a 68 Coronet R/T. When a very rare original MPC kit is selling on an auction site commanding ridiculous bid prices (most of us wouldn't or couldn't pay $400-$500 or $200 for a glue bomb), that to me is justification for a fresh kit. My generation (I'm pretty sure we remain the majority of the buying group) may be stepping aside for younger people looking for more current subjects, but look at the 1:1 classic car hobby which is surging regardless of age group.

Just saying.

Thanks for the kind words, Bob!

Anout Ebay being the barometer for what needs to be reissued, retooled or all newly tooled, yes and no.....

The non available (as in no more tooling) annuals and etc items which sell in large enough numbers (a typical production run) on ebay, at prices higher that a new kit today, I would say yes, the high price rare items, as in didn't sell even when new, no, cuz IIRC some company burned their fingers on some subjects which fell into the latter.

A survey could collect very useful data, when done right, I think in the past I made a suggestion on the very board how, again IMHO it could be done, but surveys do cost money, and I don't know if the ROI is large enough to warrant the expense.

Company insiders, please feel free to comment.

Cheers

Luc

Edited April 16, 2022 by Luc Janssens
someday I will master the English language ;)

[BobbyG]

2 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

Thanks for the kind words, Bob!

Anout Ebay being the barometer for what needs to be reissued, retooled or all newly tooled, yes and no.....

The non available (as in no more tooling) annuals and etc items which sell in large enough numbers (a typical production run) on ebay, at prices higher that a new kit today, I would say yes, the high price rare items, as in didn't sell even when new, no, cuz IIRC some company burned their fingers on some subjects which fell into the latter.

A survey could collect very useful data, when done right, I think in the past I made a suggestion on the very board how, again IMHO it could be done, but surveys do cost money, and I don't know if the ROI is large enough to warrant the expense.

Company insiders, please feel free to comment.

Cheers

Luc

Luc,

Thank you for responding. I agree with you. A survey can be conducted right here and/or from their website with voting buttons that can be collected to determine buyers' responses/choices. It may be a low cost effort using simple survey technology that may be cost effective (like voting buttons on emails). it's certainly worth the effort to determine what subjects to product giving the feedback. They can launch the survey from their site but need to promote the event to get favorable responses. My suggestion would be something like this example: What modified reissue would you like to see using the 66 Old 442 kit (obviously a 65 442 which we never had)?  Why not use this forum with all the subscribers this forum has? If memory serves me, their may have been something similar survey on this forum several years from John Gruzlak (?) of Round 2 soon after they took over. He even took the time to respond to an email i sent him.

I know I come off critical about Round2's capabilities, but I think they are the player to sustain the future of our hobby. Hopefully someone from Round2 may respond with their feedback just as you said.

Best regards, Bobby G

Edited April 16, 2022 by BobbyG

[Mark]

eBay sales tell manufacturers next to nothing about what would make a good reissue.  It only tells you that a couple of fanatics will beat each others' brains out to get a particular kit for their collection.  That's not to say the item is automatically disqualified, but they need more than an eBay sale or two to make a decision about whether or not to sink six figures into the development of a kit.

The surveys only figure out what the percentage of modelers participating in online forums, or other more "into it" builders like club members want.  The bigger numbers of people buying kits at craft stores, and building them at the kitchen table, aren't being figured in.

[keyser]

Mark has it nailed.
There are tons of surveys and wish lists here that never have consensus.

And many things are rare because nobody wanted them in the first place. eBay shows us all it takes is 2-3 to fight over something  The lunatic fringe isn’t a good gauge  

Had to think for a sec but it was John Greczula. 

[pack rat]

58 minutes ago, Mark said:

The bigger numbers of people buying kits at craft stores, and building them at the kitchen table, aren't being figured in

That group is much larger than many of us realize...."we" are not in the majority.

If you put a '68 Coronet on the shelf at Hobby Lobby next to a '69 Charger, guess which kit they will pick up? 

Edited April 16, 2022 by pack rat

[1972coronet]

25 minutes ago, pack rat said:

If you put a '68 Coronet on the shelf at Hobby Lobby next to a '69 Charger, guess which kit they will pick up?

One of the Wacky Racers or Rikshaw Karzi Show Rod kits!

 

[Mark]

When was the last time anyone posting here bought an AMT '63 Corvette kit?

Yet, if you walk into a Hobby Lobby store and check out the model kit aisle, there it is, one of the first items Round 2 reissued...and still in the same box...

[Can-Con]

3 hours ago, pack rat said:

That group is much larger than many of us realize...."we" are not in the majority.

If you put a '68 Coronet on the shelf at Hobby Lobby next to a '69 Charger, guess which kit they will pick up? 

I'd think that would depend entirely on the box art.

Most people, especially in these modern times couldn't tell a '68 Coronet from a '69 Charger anyway.

If the Coronet was orange and the Charger any other color, they'd say the Coronet was "the Dukes car", , IF they even know that that was.

[Can-Con]

3 hours ago, Mark said:

When was the last time anyone posting here bought an AMT '63 Corvette kit?

Yet, if you walk into a Hobby Lobby store and check out the model kit aisle, there it is, one of the first items Round 2 reissued...and still in the same box...

, , and you go in a few weeks from now and they're all sold. 

[Luc Janssens]

Bob,

Mark, Mike, Steve and Keyzer are right on the money, surveys on boards like these don't work, tho our input can be very useful on other domains, our enthusiasm, knowledge (subject or history wise) can contribute/aid manufacturers perfecting their kits, more options, accuracy etc.... 

IMHO, companies would do much better by having a unique QR code on the instruction sheet inside each copy of their kits, in return with that code the end-user with a smart-phone can connect to an online questionnaire, which can generate the following data:

- What product did you buy (kit number)

- Where did you buy the product (learning where what is sold where, not only type of outlet, but also geographically)

- Age and gender of the customer (coupling certain specific subject matter to age and gender)

- Up to five of his or hers wish models, all new, or chosen from a (provided) list from ones back-catalog (the more subject is listed the more chance that there is common dominator)

Also I think the Unique QR coupled/linked to the kit number protects against fraudulent input by groups or so.

What’s in it for the modelers, maybe sort of a raffle where one can win a kit or kits when the questionnaire is filled in and sent.

But again setting up the framework and analysing all the gathered data cost money, so the big question is, if the return will be high enough to offset the cost, also it won't include data from customers who bought a kit as a gift* to someone.

Cheers

 

Edit: * one can always ad the question, was the kit purchased by you, or wife, G/F, parrents, Grandparrents, others (please specify)

 

Luc

 

Ps: input always welcomed!

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Luc Janssens
clarification. work in progress (story of my life ;)

[vamach1]

Crazy money for a promo chassis single exhaust kit.  Should not be hard to turn a 66 back to 65 specs when the new and improved Round2 kit comes out.