Offering tips or blind praise- what SHOULD we do as a community?

[Ace-Garageguy]

39 minutes ago, Tom Geiger said:

Folks, this thread has gone down the slippery slope to the land of poor intent!

All we are doing at this point is discouraging people from posting their models.  Seriously, I had a PM today from someone saying exactly that!  

And that's a crying shame!

Anything here that's a crying shame is that ADULTS find what's been written here discouraging.

Nobody is being mean, denigrating anybody else, or being unduly critical or disparaging or cruel.

If we can't have a civil discussion about reality without it being read as "discouraging", that really IS sad.

As I said earlier: "as far as the whole premise of this thread goes, I've spent a lot of time on this site. I just do NOT see, really, anyone who picks at things just to be mean. I rarely see any kind of criticism at all, constructive or otherwise. But I see tons of comments that are the equivalent of "likes" and nothing more."

Edited September 10, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy

[Classicgas]

Right on Bill.

[Snake45]

41 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

As I said earlier: "as far as the whole premise of this thread goes, I've spent a lot of time on this site. I just do NOT see, really, anyone who picks at things just to be mean. 

I always post on my builds, "Comments welcome." I've never gotten one I'd consider anywhere near "mean." And I have had several useful, constructive criticisms. 

[martinfan5]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Anything here that's a crying shame is that ADULTS find what's been written here discouraging.

Nobody is being mean, denigrating anybody else, or being unduly critical or disparaging or cruel.

If we can't have a civil discussion about reality without it being read as "discouraging", that really IS sad.

As I said earlier: "as far as the whole premise of this thread goes, I've spent a lot of time on this site. I just do NOT see, really, anyone who picks at things just to be mean. I rarely see any kind of criticism at all, constructive or otherwise. But I see tons of comments that are the equivalent of "likes" and nothing more."

Well said Ace.

[gtx6970]

If I see a build that appears well done.

I'll comment .

If I see issues , especially blatant ones . I just keep  any and all comments to myself. No worries about said slippery slope so to speak. Even though I think most people can and are willing to accept  minor critiques. 

 

Momma always told me, cant say something nice, say nothing at all

[StevenGuthmiller]

10 hours ago, Plowboy said:

How many people that build models aren't already aware of the flaws their build has? What's the point of telling them something they already know? Especially in a public manner. Is it really to help the person that built the kit or something else? I seriously doubt that it's "for the hobby". For whatever reason, people are more interested in talking about the negative rather than the positive. This thread proves that.

It has happened to me more times than I can count.

Not only with mistakes in execution but accuracy as well.

I welcome with open arms all constructive criticism and always will.

It not only helps me do a better job of building, I learn a ton about the actual vehicles.

 

 

Steve

 

[Richard Bartrop]

I'd be happy to help with accuracy on certain subjects, but since so many have expressed that they feel accuracy is somehow a detriment, I don't volunteer unless somebody asks.

[peteski]

We live in very silly times.

[majel]

I don't post a lot of models on the forum, mainly because i build at a glacial speed, but when i do guys are usually pretty fair in their assessment of my work.  I build because i enjoy it, it's super frustrating at times and extremely enjoyable other times.  I have yet to build a model i am completely happy with, i know most of its flaws, but an outside point of view from someone is helpful.  It's a very subjective hobby, we all have differing views on what constitutes quality work.  As long as I'm happy with the model, I improved my skills, picked up some helpful tips from the forum, and maybe inspired someone, then it's all good.  

[moparfarmer]

I'am probably going to get in trouble for this...The way the world is going today every bodys feelings get hurt over the smallest things..If its not politically correct our feelings are hurt..Grow up and be the man/woman you were years ago..Too many snowflakes who want everything to be nice..No competition, just be happy and have fun..If you don't like comments or don't like to be hurt, don't post..I know I will get feed back but thats what the USA and Canada are..Free countries that have freedom of speech and movement..Like it or not, it is what it is..

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Richard Bartrop said:

I'd be happy to help with accuracy on certain subjects, but since so many have expressed that they feel accuracy is somehow a detriment, I don't volunteer unless somebody asks.

I find myself posting in the "General" section often asking for tips on accuracy.

This way I get more responses than if I ask questions on a build thread in the "On the Bench" section.

 

 

Steve

[MrObsessive]

OK, I was going to refrain from commenting on this section as I'm of the adage..........."If you don't have anything nice to say......."

But I'll use myself as a good example of how constructive criticism can indeed help especially when you're on the downside of getting a model done.

A few years ago when I was trying to finish up my '59 Chevy, I had showed the body sitting on the frame, but nothing was quite glued together just yet. Someone had pointed out (John Goschke?) how nice the work was coming along as they loved the car, but could something be done about the way too low hanging frame rails that ALWAYS showed up on every '59 Chevy build he's seen.

I took a good look at what he mentioned and indeed, even after I had re-engineered the kit to keep the frame as tucked away as possible, the frame rails were still peaking below the rockers. Sooooo...........after some thought, I decided to mask off what was already painted, got out my Dremel and ground away at the excess.

Here's what I'm referring to................

Before...

And after.....

Hard to see in the last pic, but no showing of the frame now. Just goes to show that even among us who've been building for a loooong time, there's things we miss that others can see and vice versa.

So now I'm happy with the way it turned out and for future '59 Chevy builds (there will be more ), I'll definitely remember this particular issue with this kit.

Edited September 11, 2019 by MrObsessive
Pics were missing........added them in.

[mikemodeler]

Thank you for sharing Bill, I think your post captures what I was trying to say. I am sure there were some who felt like they couldn't possibly mention that to you, afterall you are a well known, well respected builder and how dare ANYONE tell you that something was amiss! But yet, a member did, you saw it and fixed it and now have that stored in your memory for the next build.

If someone can point out something to the likes of Bill Geary, who is to say that the same can't be done for others? Bill took the comments to heart, fixed the problem and made a great model even better. The point was to improve the model and it was accomplished easily and without offending anyone. 

[SfanGoch]

Modelers of other genres aren't as averse to constructive criticism and welcome any advice which can improve their efforts and skills. I fully appreciate and expect critical comments. There are things someone else may see which can go unnoticed by the builder.

Edited September 11, 2019 by SfanGoch

[randyc]

Still reading this and still thinking on it.  Ya know, WHAT IF the people posting atta boys really do think it's great work?   IF the more pro builders among us give praise, maybe they have talked to the builder and are being encouraging, even though we see stuff that we think could be done better.   Or maybe the atta boys are coming from builders who think it is awesome.   

Maybe we shouldn't say something that is a bad build to us is a bad build for everyone?   And I'm not sure I think people who are extremely critical should be commenting on this or any builds if they haven't posted up themselves for all to see and praise/criticize?   I mean, if you're criticizing me or BobJoe or whoever, do you have proof of your skills or are you just bloviating?   For me persoanlly, if [for example] Bill Geary comments on MY build, whatever he says is very important to me.  I've seen his finished work and he is one of the best ever at figuring out the details and everything else - a total package builder.   But if you are critical and I have never seen a finished build from you, then what weight should that carry?  

My builds are more Roadkill than Pebble Beach, so any comments are welcome.  

Maybe, just maybe, the comment is not "blind praise" from the individual that made it.   

[bobthehobbyguy]

The OP posted the question of offering meaningless praise or constructive criticism. There have been many comments that many are hesitant to offer constructive criticism bbecuase of bad experiences in the past. Thus we end up with lots of nice model comments for mediocre models being posted or no comments at all. This is not a good thing for anyone. The forum is for sharing ideas and techniques.
This all boils down to poor communication. The poster needs to say they desire critical feedback so those commenting don't feel like they are walking into a mine field. If the poster hasn't make the effort to comment on an aspect of the model presented. It provides meaningful feedback.

[Snake45]

22 minutes ago, randyc said:

My builds are more Roadkill than Pebble Beach, so any comments are welcome.  

This should be your signature line. If you won't use it, I'm totally going to steal it and use it myself! 

[TarheelRick]

13 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

If we can't have a civil discussion about reality without it being read as "discouraging", that really IS sad.

Unfortunately that is where our culture is today.  When our school systems, even up through college level, offers safe places, refuses to allow open discussion of issues because they do not agree with another opinion, et. al., then we have indeed stepped over the slippery slope.  We have gotten to the point where warm fuzzies have overtaken reality.  Personally I will not offer criticism of a build on the open forum.  I may PM the builder, not with criticism per se, but more with a question of "Was this your intention?". Most responses, if I do indeed get one, are positive with an "oops" or "thanks for bringing that up."

[Daddyfink]

Has anyone just tried minding their own business and just letting people do what they want to do?

Pretty crazy idea, huh?

[Snake45]

12 minutes ago, Daddyfink said:

Has anyone just tried minding their own business and just letting people do what they want to do?

Pretty crazy idea, huh?

When you post a model here, do you hope everyone will just mind their own business and not comment on it? Or better yet, not look at it at all? 

[misterNNL]

This thread reminds me of some of the comments I remember hearing while standing in line waiting to get into the model contests in MPC contest series days. Potential entrants would line up with model boxes in hand supposedly excited about entering the contest and of course you got into the real car show for free that day and got  free entry pass for the next day to pick up your models.

I vividly remember people asking others if they were going to actually enter the contest. Some would say they were going to walk around the real car show and stop back at the model contest to see what was on the tables before they decided whether or not to enter. If what they saw entered wasn't too good then they would go ahead and enter. I hope that lack of confidence in what you've built doesn't keep builders from posting their creations here.

I am constantly amazed by what I see posted here and as a result learn something every time I visit.

[BeakDoc]

In my time as a member on this forum this may be the most fascinating and enlightening thread I’ve read. I’m not what one would label a “joiner” bur I really feel compelled to add my 2 cents to this one. For a couple days I’ve read and pondered all of the comments while culling from my thinky parts what I’d say and how it should be said. Please forgive me if I get long-winded.

As a child I loved this hobby. Alone time building representations of the cars I drooled over.... It was awesome! The builds, however, were hideous, brush painted glue bombs. But, my mom always gushed over them.

Then adulthood happened. The story is similar to many I have read on the forum. Children, jobs, chores, moves, jobs, no budget for frivolity, more chores, occasional tragedy, jobs, blah blah blah. Then about 2 years ago I decided to get back into the hobby I adored as a child.

As I sit back and look at the shelf of finished models from the past 22 months or so, I am astonished at how good they look. Especially when compared to the handful of builds beside them that somehow managed to survive since my pre-teen years. Even when I compare the first model I built when I dove back into the hobby (a Panther Pink ‘71 Hemi ‘Cuda) to some of my more recent builds, the growth in my skill level is glaring. I truly feel that I have this forum and the outstanding modelers that comprises it to thank for much of that growth. There are folks on here who can outbuild me in their sleep and folks on here that have forgotten more about cars in general than I’ll ever know, but, I dare say that there is no one on the forum from whom I cannot learn something. I won’t lie, “great build”, “nice job” and so forth are great for the confidence, or, at least, better than crickets chirping. Where I really thrive, however, is when I read constructive criticism, tips, pointers and especially questions that provoke meaningful dialogue on a specific part of a build or the basic processes or ideas that went into a particular model. I was an active duty Marine for 5 years and have spent the better part of my adult life working in professional kitchens. There is nothing anyone is going to say that’ll have me run crying to my kit stash closet in tears. I try to build each model better than the last and, largely, through this forum I feel like I have accomplished that. 

I owe each and every one of you a debt of gratitude for the inspiration your builds provide, for the guidance your tips, tricks and advice provides and for just being an all around good community of folks who love the hobby and all manner of automobiles.

[randyc]

3 hours ago, Snake45 said:

This should be your signature line. If you won't use it, I'm totally going to steal it and use it myself! 

If I can figure out how.... lol

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Daddyfink said:

Has anyone just tried minding their own business and just letting people do what they want to do?

Pretty crazy idea, huh?

People are always free to do what they want to do, but that doesn't make a lot of sense for an open forum.

The whole point of a board like this is interaction and discussion.

I don't see much point in having a board at all if everyone is just going to clam up, say nothing and "mind their own business".

I can tell you that I wouldn't waste my time here if it was just going to be nothing but "likes" like Facebook.

 

 

Steve

[Scale-Master]

There are some really well thought out perspectives in this thread, and some great examples of when open discussion is beneficial to all involved.  I especially liked Bill Geary's example of the way things should go.  I know I have been given undue heat for trying to help fellow builders when I've noticed a huge error while it was still easy to fix.

It's too bad some people tend to be predisposed to read negativity into other people's comments.  Things offered to be helpful are often mistaken for "attacks" and the person making the observation is too often incorrectly labeled a "hater" or "jealous".   It doesn’t help when others pile on instead of thinking for themselves.  It is not conducive to the betterment and growth of the hobby, and I hear continually that is one of the goals of these types of forums.  You can't have it both ways.

Another facet I didn't see discussed in this thread is the possibility the person(s) posting less than stellar work and receiving over the top praise for it isn't who they portray themselves to be, or they may be playing joke or trolling other members of the forum.  (Don't dismiss the thought; it has happened several times just in this forum alone on some pretty significant levels.) 

And who knows, maybe some of the people offering the high praise are doing the same in return?  Or maybe they genuinely feel sorry for the builder?  If the latter I'm not sure how encouraging poor workmanship is helpful in any way.

Either way, is it really what we want to do within the hobby to make it better? 

Do we want to encourage others to troll the forum, or on the other hand hinder the potential growth of a budding builder by telling them they are doing awesome work when they could be doing so much better with a little honest help? 

I can't see yes being to correct answer to either scenario, if that is what is happening.