Engine or no engine, that is the question.

[Brudda]

Interesting. I had design class ‘s in school. I like a design of a car. It really did not matter what moved it. But my ideas changed over time. I love a model with an engine but it is not nessary in some cases. Like the new lambos, the engines are tucked in the rear covered with a large plastic cover . Not a big deal for me, if it has one or not. Now a cobra needs an engine, a 426 hemi cuda needs an engine, a Ferrari 250 GTO needs an engine. you guys get the idea. The tamiya R5 turbo 2 did not have an engine, it’s ok as it’s in the rear. And you have to take all of these interior panels off just to see it. I was a little disappointed but i did not have a coronary over it. 

[Bills72sj]

Because of my generally Day 2 builds, a modified engine is part of the fun. I love kit bashing and working with what I have. I have only built one, no-engine kit into one that did. I was still more fun than work and I was pleased with the results. (see pics)

[stitchdup]

  On 8/8/2024 at 1:45 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yeah, but "whirr whirr" (and silence when it's not moving) doesn't seem as much fun as "vroom vroom". 

And I want to hear a cam-lopey idle, even if it's just in my 8-year-old's imagination. 

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one of the audi e-tron coupes drove past me the other day and it seemed to have a slight rumble to the motor instead of the whine most have. even the porsche ev has a that whine so the audi actually sounded car ish. It wasn't tyre noise either as the rumble was while on grass. still not as good as a powerful engine but it was a more pleasing sound. still not something i would want to own though

[Ulf]

Kit without engine is ok for me provided that it is possible to put in an engine, loose bonnet and hole in the chassis as in AMTs. A loose bonnet is more important than you first think because some cars have a rather intricate shape on the bonnet that is difficult to scrape up afterwards.

[hedotwo]

Curbside is perfectly fine.  I only do restorations of annuals so the engines are often already built and painted.  I usually just leave them as is and install.  The outside is what I see once finished and displayed.  Not that I don't appreciate detailed engines when I see them here though ?

[atomicholiday]

My view on this has changed over the years.  I used to avoid curbside kits, but now I’m fine with them.  I can live with either way, although I still prefer to have an engine.

The hobby has changed some of this too.  With all the resin and 3d printed parts around now, it’s easier to fill the engine bay if you just have to have an engine in there.

[CapSat 6]

I guess I'm in the school of thought that a kit needs engine detail only if the engine is interesting to me.

The new Bronco was mentioned above- personally, I'm not so interested in that engine that I would feel the need to have an engine in that kit if I were to build one. Granted, modern engines are generally more powerful related to their displacement than old ones- the 3.6 Pentastar in my Minivan is plenty powerful, but I wouldn't be in love with that engine in scale. Hellcat Challenger? YES- engine, please! 3.6 Challenger? Then, engine not necessary for me.

I suppose if Ford did some kind of high output version of the Bronco (let's call it a "Shelby Super Cobra Jet Twin Turbo Bronco Interceptor"), then there probably would be no point to getting a kit of it if it had no engine detail. 

If we get subjects with no engine detail that otherwise might not be had at all if full engines bust the budget, then bring them on. I'll take a crack at doing the hard work for an engine. Do I NEED to see a 360 or 400-4bbl in a new Chrysler Cordoba kit? Not really, but I would like to see that kit...and if I want to add a Hellcat or Hemi to it, I can do that, too... 

  

[TarheelRick]

  On 8/8/2024 at 12:21 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

If a model has no engine, I can't really justify going "vroom vroom".

It may as well be a Tesla.

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Ace, I saw an ad just the other day showing a Tesla with a built-in rumble generator (for a better term). This system plays ICE sounds that exit through a speaker system in the phony exhaust pipes, and the sound varies with the acceleration of the car.  If they are going to that much trouble to sound like an ICE, then go ahead and put an ICE in it.

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 8/8/2024 at 1:06 AM, SSNJim said:

I don't normally build with an engine, even if it's included. I'm of the opinion that if you can't see it when it's parked on the street/shelf, it doesn't matter. I've built kits with multiple piece detailed suspensions using metal axles instead. I do build engines and suspensions as instructed every so often, but it's rare.

All these detailed engines don't look like much to me. A set of spark plug wires (often oversized), battery cables, and sometimes a fuel line to the carburetor doesn't a fully detailed engine make. Modern engines are a rat's nest of wiring and tubing, and even older engines have several tubes and cables that aren't often depicted.

I guess I could call it the "Aunt Matilda rule" for mechanical pieces . If your Aunt Matilda doesn't understand/recognize it, you don't need it. I rarely carefully scrutinize my models after being placed on the shelf and don't see the value in going crazy on unseen details. 

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Aunt Matilda can go pound sand!

Personally, I've gotten to the point that I enjoy detailing engine compartments just as much, or more, than other aspects of the model.

It's become a real point of pride for me, and I get more compliments on some of my engine bays than anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by StevenGuthmiller

[Zen]

  On 8/8/2024 at 1:38 AM, Jordan White said:

I mean to be fair, the Bronco is a rats nest (no engine cover)!

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Ford at least should have put a cover over this mess and Round 2 could have done the same.

[SSNJim]

  On 8/8/2024 at 5:31 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

Aunt Matilda can go pound sand!

Personally, I've gotten to the point that I enjoy detailing engine compartments just as much, or more, than other aspects of the model.

It's become a real point of pride for me, and I get more compliments on some of my engine bays than anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

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Granted, you do some incredible detailing on all facets of a model, and I do look at, and admire, all your builds. You obviously take care to present an accurate model. Not everyone is, or strives to be, at your level. Here's where I'm coming from: after all the showing off of a build, and the model is "retired" on the shelf along with the trophies and the next project is in progress, how often do you look at it?  Please don't misconstrue my comments - detail a model all you want to the level you want. That's great. I wouldn't have it any other way. All I care about is a recognizable car on the shelf. Aunt Matilda isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a 289 Hi-Po and a 302 even if I pointed it out, or care that this Mustang has an IRS, and that one doesn't. She probably will be able to say "I saw one on the way over here", or "Your cousin Cletus had one of those". It's just the way I prefer to build.

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 8/8/2024 at 6:51 PM, SSNJim said:

Granted, you do some incredible detailing on all facets of a model, and I do look at, and admire, all your builds. You obviously take care to present an accurate model. Not everyone is, or strives to be, at your level. Here's where I'm coming from: after all the showing off of a build, and the model is "retired" on the shelf along with the trophies and the next project is in progress, how often do you look at it?  Please don't misconstrue my comments - detail a model all you want to the level you want. That's great. I wouldn't have it any other way. All I care about is a recognizable car on the shelf. Aunt Matilda isn't going to be able to tell the difference between a 289 Hi-Po and a 302 even if I pointed it out, or care that this Mustang has an IRS, and that one doesn't. She probably will be able to say "I saw one on the way over here", or "Your cousin Cletus had one of those". It's just the way I prefer to build.

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I don't have any interest in trying to convince anyone that they have to build as I do, but in all honesty, I look at my builds every day.

It's unavoidable as my display cases are directly adjacent to my computer table.

On that same vein, any of the models that I've done where I've put extra effort into the engine bay has been constructed with the option of displaying them with the hood open, or closed, so they're usually displayed with the engines in full view.

No offense, but if I were to have the same philosophy of "how often do I look at" the finished model, and if I never did, there wouldn't be much of a reason to keep them around.

Seems to me that I would be better off selling them and saving the space taken up by the cases.

 

On another note, I get quite confused when I see a post such as yours, and in the back of my mind I hear the continuous echos of the obligatory "I build for myself", that we hear repeatedly and ad nauseam, (not saying by you) and yet we're supposed to care about what aunt Matilda thinks about what's in the cabinet?  

I'm just half joking with you, but I think you get my meaning.

Aunt Matilda has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what, or how I build.

Just like most of us, our families couldn't give a rat's *ss, so, as the old saying goes......"I build for myself".

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Bills72sj]

  On 8/8/2024 at 7:32 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

I don't have any interest in trying to convince anyone that they have to build as I do, but in all honesty, I look at my builds every day.

It's unavoidable as my display cases are directly adjacent to my computer table.

On that same vein, any of the models that I've done where I've put extra effort into the engine bay has been constructed with the option of displaying them with the hood open, or closed, so they're usually displayed with the engines in full view.

No offense, but if I were to have the same philosophy of "how often do I look at" the finished model, and if I never did, there wouldn't be much of a reason to keep them around.

Seems to me that I would be better off selling them and saving the space taken up by the cases.

 

On another note, I get quite confused when I see a post such as yours, and in the back of my mind I hear the continuous echos of the obligatory "I build for myself", that we hear repeatedly and ad nauseam, (not saying by you) and yet we're supposed to care about what aunt Matilda thinks about what's in the cabinet?  

I'm just half joking with you, but I think you get my meaning.

Aunt Matilda has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what, or how I build.

Just like most of us, our families couldn't give a rat's *ss, so, as the old saying goes......"I build for myself".

 

Steve

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I too like to look at builds in my display case. Usually at least once a week. More often when I am actively building. Though I need to get better at keeping the doors closed when I am sanding. Nobody in my circle of people care about them, but that is ok.

PS Thank you Steve for motivating me to be a better craftsman by sharing what is possible.

[slusher]

Curbside or engine is really up too the builder.  The person iim worried about pleasing is myself.  The builder is going to look at almost every day so I can be happy with curbside as much as with an engine.

[Dave Ambrose]

For me, it depends on the subject. Building a hot rod or dragster without an engine just doesn't look right. ? 

I once built a '60 Impala without the engine. I was very pressed for time, and it was needed for a museum display, so the engine wasn't necessary. Just glued the hood and trunk lid in place, then painted it. 

I've built a few curbside kits in recent years, and I have to say, they came out well. I don't miss the engine because the bodies are the primary element in the final build. That holds true for a lot of my models with engines too. 

If it means getting new and better kits sooner, then by all means, leave the engine out. We can either find one to put in there, or build it without. The increasing dominance of 3D printed aftermarket parts means just about anything can be made for a given kit and added for a reasonable cost. I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the majority of purchasers don't care about the engines unless they're very prominent. 

[Exotics_Builder]

I prefer full detail, including engine.  But some subjects are only available as curbside.  If I want the model, I just have to "bite the bullet" and get the less detail.  A lot of resin kits that are curbside are extremely difficult to modify for full detail and I usually say no to wanting to do it.

[mikemodeler]

"was quite disappointed that the Revell new Bronco, while providing an opening hood, has nothing under it. "

 

Ace, did you mean the AMT New Bronco kit ? The most recent Revell Bronco kit was of the first generation and it certainly has an engine depicted in it.

 

I get that if we are building replicas of vehicles that have engines our kits/builds should reflect that, but as a builder who does little to no engine detailing when I build, the lack of an engine is secondary to subject matter or body accuracy. I have a couple dozen of Revell snap Camaros, Corvettes and Chevelles in my display case because they are representative of vehicles I would like to have if money was no object.

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 8/10/2024 at 12:53 PM, mikemodeler said:

"was quite disappointed that the Revell new Bronco, while providing an opening hood, has nothing under it. "

 

Ace, did you mean the AMT New Bronco kit ? The most recent Revell Bronco kit was of the first generation and it certainly has an engine depicted in it.

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Yup. That's what I meant. Apparently my statement was cause for much levity among certain non-actual-builder quarters.  

I'll be using the guts from an old-school Revell Bronco in/under the new AMT Bronco, which is the only way I'd have one in reality.  

I like the looks of the new one, but I've seen the fragility of the axles, tie rods, etc. up close and personal, and the gee-whiz-lookit-all-the-techie-wizardry under the hood leaves me cold. How you going to work on that mess if you're really far offroad?

The new ones are nothing but egoboo mall-crawlers if they don't get significant upgrades and mods, so why not just swap in tried-and-proven real offroad components?

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 8/10/2024 at 4:15 AM, Dave Ambrose said:

...I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the majority of purchasers don't care about the engines unless they're very prominent. 

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I think there's enough evidence to suggest the majority of purchasers today don't even understand how an engine runs or why the car goes, so it's no surprise full mechanical detail isn't much in demand. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's a thought: the engine (or other means of propulsion) is the heart of a vehicle.

Without an engine, there's simply no point in the thing even existing.

Engines are important in my car-modeling because they're important in my reality. 

That's my position in a nutshell. 

EDIT: Kinda the same reason I generally gravitate towards other modeling subjects that make some effort to represent reality in all its complexities, like framing and planking and reasonably correct rigging on larger scale, wooden boat/ship models.

My favorite aircraft models represent their engines reasonably well too...though I do have some smaller scale kits that don't...essentially "cubsides".

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[imarriedawitch]

Anytime I don't have to build an engine is fine by me. Even on builds with engines I'll occasionally borrow one from a previous build instead of going through the process again. I don't display anything so previous builds are donors for future builds. There's only so many times I'm willing to build the same Nascar engine or 426 hemi.

[Tabbysdaddy]

  On 8/10/2024 at 4:47 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

I think there's enough evidence to suggest the majority of purchasers today don't even understand how an engine runs or why the car goes, so it's no surprise full mechanical detail isn't much in demand. 

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The car goes because I push the big rectangle thingy, and it stops because I push the smaller rectangle thingy next to it. 

[Rob Hall]

I have no problem with curbsides..lots of great subjects only available in curbside form (whether a styrene kit or resin or 3d printed resin)...some vehicles have very distinctive engines, and thus I like to have an engine in those vehicles...Ferrari V12s, Ferrari flat 12s, Ford 427s, Hemis, VW air cooled 4s, etc...

[Matt Bacon]

I guess I'm pretty equal-opportunity here. My choices are primarily driven by what I want to build and what I want in my cabinet. Of my last few, the Super Samuri 240Z had an engine but wasn't designed to have an open hood,and yet I cut it open and detailed it because the engine is part of what makes a Samuri a Samuri; the AC289 Sports MkIII had an engine swap into the base Cobra 427 S/C because the "289" was kinda the point, though the bodywork was the toughest task; the Lotus Esprit Mk1 had no engine in the kit, but it's the body shape that was the point of the build, so I certainly wasn't going to scratch a chassis and engine details; and the 1927 Delage racer is a white metal kit with no engine and the work to open it up and put one in was WAY beyond what I was prepared to do for its display purpose...

I guess it mostly comes down to what I want the model I've built for, what it's intended to show off, and what the kit comes with that I can work with. Given the number of Fujimi Enthusiast kits in my stash, I guess I quite like good engine detail in a kit, but given the number of Fujimi Enthusiast kits in my stash, I'm not so good at building them....

best,

M.

[peteski]

  On 8/10/2024 at 4:43 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

I'll be using the guts from an old-school Revell Bronco in/under the new AMT Bronco, which is the only way I'd have one in reality.  

I like the looks of the new one, but I've seen the fragility of the axles, tie rods, etc. up close and personal, and the gee-whiz-lookit-all-the-techie-wizardry under the hood leaves me cold. How you going to work on that mess if you're really far offload?

The new ones are nothing but egoboo mall-crawlers if they don't get significant upgrades and mods, so why not just swap in tried-and-proven real offroad components?

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Same can be said for majority of today's (luxury) pickup trucks. Even the ones which look like off-road-ready likely never see anything but asphalt.  Sure, there are some exceptions, but most are "Hey, look at me" vehicles.